Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NoeL · 10-03-2009, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I've heard this argument before. The Prince of Tyre was not considered a perfect being.

Ezekiel 28:12-17 "Lucifer" means "Light-Bringer" or "Day Star." Ezekiel calls him "the anointed cherub who covers," which means he was one of the chief angels whose wings covered God's throne in heaven. He is specifically shown to be a created being, possibly the most beautiful, wise, and perfect of God's creations.

The Prince of Tyre was not considered the most beautiful, wise and perfect of God's creation.

I'll give you a hint: Lucifer = Venus.

"Lucifer" means "morning star". Lucifer is NOT Satan, it is the name given to Venus in an old myth about the planets which Ezekiel is poetically comparing to the Prince of Tyre. Venus never rises high in the sky like the other planets, it stays close to the horizon. The myth says that it was cast down from the heavens, which is why it never appears high in the sky.

Lucifer and Satan have NOTHING to do with each other.

ChristMyth · 10-03-2009, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

How can lack of evidence be a weak argument for non-existence?

Do you really know what non-existence signifies?

A LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR EXISTENCE.

Again, Lack of Evidence of existence is the STRONGEST argument for non-existence.

ALL THINGS CONSIDERED NON-EXISTING HAVE A LACK OF EVIDENCE FOR THEIR EXISTENCE. And that includes Your God and Jesus.

The argument for non-existence will FAIL or become FATAL as soon as evidence for existence is found.

No evidence for your Jesus and God can be found, the arguments for non-existence of those myths, your God and Jesus, are still intact.

Now, what is your argument for your God and Jesus. You believe your God and Jesus exist even though you have no evidence?

If so your belief as no value as evidence.
,
The argument for non-existence of your God and Jesus is FAR STRONGER than what you believe.

If I drop a marble in a 5,000 acre field, but you only have the intelligence and technology to study only 1,500 acres of that field.. does that mean that marble doesn't exist?

What it means is that I have a right to be skeptical of your marble claim. I can say that I have examined 30% of the given field and have found no evidence that your marble exists. Worse yet, given the evidence within the field I examined, I have found no reason to believe that you were even in the field to begin with. Because of this lack of evidence of either your presence or the presence of the marble within the field, I have no reason to believe you.

This would not be a statement of 100% certainty. There could, in fact, be a marble within your field. But until further evidence presents itself, I can say that there probably is no marble.

Of course, your analogy doesn't work to begin with because I know what you mean by "marble." Your analogy would work better if you had said "There are fairies dancing it that field." I still, however, would have no reason to believe you without evidence.

IBelieveInHymn · 10-03-2009, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristMyth

What it means is that I have a right to be skeptical of your marble claim. I can say that I have examined 30% of the given field and have found no evidence that your marble exists. Worse yet, given the evidence within the field I examined, I have found no reason to believe that you were even in the field to begin with. Because of this lack of evidence of either your presence or the presence of the marble within the field, I have no reason to believe you.

You have examined only 1,500 acres of the field, but I placed the marble roughly around 2,000 acres, but your lack of intelligence and technology cannot go beyond 1,500+ acres. So, you will claim "lack of evidence" only in the amount of space you can measure.

Quote:

This would not be a statement of 100% certainty. There could, in fact, be a marble within your field. But until further evidence presents itself, I can say that there probably is no marble.

The marble I placed in that field does exist, but it's out of your reach because you lack the technology and intelligence to locate it. Does this mean it doesn't exist?

Quote:

Of course, your analogy doesn't work to begin with because I know what you mean by "marble." Your analogy would work better if you had said "There are fairies dancing it that field." I still, however, would have no reason to believe you without evidence.

My analogy works just fine. This is a perfect example showing that God exists outside of our space and time dimension. It would be impossible to locate that marble.

Deus Ex · 10-03-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristMyth

What it means is that I have a right to be skeptical of your marble claim. I can say that I have examined 30% of the given field and have found no evidence that your marble exists. Worse yet, given the evidence within the field I examined, I have found no reason to believe that you were even in the field to begin with. Because of this lack of evidence of either your presence or the presence of the marble within the field, I have no reason to believe you.

You have examined only 1,500 acres of the field, but I placed the marble roughly around 2,000 acres, but your lack of intelligence and technology cannot go beyond 1,500+ acres. So, you will claim "lack of evidence" only in the amount of space you can measure.

The marble I placed in that field does exist, but it's out of your reach because you lack the technology and intelligence to locate it. Does this mean it doesn't exist?

Quote:

Of course, your analogy doesn't work to begin with because I know what you mean by "marble." Your analogy would work better if you had said "There are fairies dancing it that field." I still, however, would have no reason to believe you without evidence.

My analogy works just fine. This is a perfect example showing that God exists outside of our space and time dimension. It would be impossible to locate that marble.

The default position would be agnosticism. There would be no way to know for sure if there was a marble there or not.

Your analogy would not lead me to fideism.

Dark Virtue · 10-03-2009, 12:16 PM

IBIH...if the goal is for everyone to find the marble...why hide it?

IBelieveInHymn · 10-03-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

IBIH...if the goal is for everyone to find the marble...why hide it?

It's not hidden. It's in a wide open field, but you still can't see it.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-03-2009, 01:53 PM

Message to IBelieveInHymn: If a God exists, and wanted as many people as possible to believe that he exists, and to accept him, he could easily have attracted far more people than Christianity has attracted. No matter how many arguments you make, what it will eventually come down to is "might makes right," which is a detestible and unproven theory. I would never be willing and able to accept any God based upon "might makes right." In case you are not aware of it, Romans chapter 9 basically teaches "might makes right." Good character is proven with actions, not with words, including prophecies.

Under certain other circumstances, there is no way that you would have been a Christian today. I am referring in part to being born in a Muslim country, or being born in another century and in another country.

Dark Virtue · 10-03-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

IBIH...if the goal is for everyone to find the marble...why hide it?

It's not hidden. It's in a wide open field, but you still can't see it.

You're missing the point.

If you dropped a marble in a 5,000 acre field and expect someone to find it...it's hidden.

Why drop it in a field at all? Why not just hand someone the marble?

ESPECIALLY if death/pain/eternal damnation is at stake.

Sai · 10-03-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristMyth

What it means is that I have a right to be skeptical of your marble claim. I can say that I have examined 30% of the given field and have found no evidence that your marble exists. Worse yet, given the evidence within the field I examined, I have found no reason to believe that you were even in the field to begin with. Because of this lack of evidence of either your presence or the presence of the marble within the field, I have no reason to believe you.

You have examined only 1,500 acres of the field, but I placed the marble roughly around 2,000 acres, but your lack of intelligence and technology cannot go beyond 1,500+ acres. So, you will claim "lack of evidence" only in the amount of space you can measure.

The marble I placed in that field does exist, but it's out of your reach because you lack the technology and intelligence to locate it. Does this mean it doesn't exist?

Quote:

Of course, your analogy doesn't work to begin with because I know what you mean by "marble." Your analogy would work better if you had said "There are fairies dancing it that field." I still, however, would have no reason to believe you without evidence.

My analogy works just fine. This is a perfect example showing that God exists outside of our space and time dimension. It would be impossible to locate that marble.

Most everyone on earth has searched that field, every last grain of sand picked up and examined over and over. They have dug deep, and looked outside the field. They have brought sextants, astrolabes and other curious devices to aid in the search. Some have chanted for the marble, others have done exotic breathing exercises . Some believe they have Experienced the Marble.

Many have reported finding the marble! It is large small red blue and green; some say it is made of steel, others say glass, stone or clay. None can produce it on demand; they say you must have a urim or a thumim or an alarm clock in order to be able to see it. Others maintain it is invisible, and only the pure at heart can perceive it.

Some say, study with me, pay me, and you too shall if you believe, be able to see the marble.

They all say lo! those others are bearers of the False Marble. i alone know the One True Marble.

Then they go to fighting and squabbling among themselves.

The atheists walk off shaking their heads in bemused disgust.

Dark Virtue · 10-03-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

You have examined only 1,500 acres of the field, but I placed the marble roughly around 2,000 acres, but your lack of intelligence and technology cannot go beyond 1,500+ acres. So, you will claim "lack of evidence" only in the amount of space you can measure.

The marble I placed in that field does exist, but it's out of your reach because you lack the technology and intelligence to locate it. Does this mean it doesn't exist?

My analogy works just fine. This is a perfect example showing that God exists outside of our space and time dimension. It would be impossible to locate that marble.

Most everyone on earth has searched that field, every last grain of sand picked up and examined over and over. They have dug deep, and looked outside the field. They have brought sextants, astrolabes and other curious devices to aid in the search. Some have chanted for the marble, others have done exotic breathing exercises . Some believe they have Experienced the Marble.

Many have reported finding the marble! It is large small red blue and green; some say it is made of steel, others say glass, stone or clay. None can produce it on demand; they say you must have a urim or a thumim or an alarm clock in order to be able to see it. Others maintain it is invisible, and only the pure at heart can perceive it.

Some say, study with me, pay me, and you too shall if you believe, be able to see the marble.

They all say lo! those others are bearers of the False Marble. i alone know the One True Marble.

Then they go to fighting and squabbling among themselves.

The atheists walk off shaking their heads in bemused disgust.

Best. Post. Ever.

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10-03-2009, 12:16 PM	#165
Dark Virtue Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 759	IBIH...if the goal is for everyone to find the marble...why hide it?

10-03-2009, 01:53 PM	#167
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to IBelieveInHymn: If a God exists, and wanted as many people as possible to believe that he exists, and to accept him, he could easily have attracted far more people than Christianity has attracted. No matter how many arguments you make, what it will eventually come down to is "might makes right," which is a detestible and unproven theory. I would never be willing and able to accept any God based upon "might makes right." In case you are not aware of it, Romans chapter 9 basically teaches "might makes right." Good character is proven with actions, not with words, including prophecies. Under certain other circumstances, there is no way that you would have been a Christian today. I am referring in part to being born in a Muslim country, or being born in another century and in another country.

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