Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 07:41 PM

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to this thread and posts the rest of the chapter. I know everyone must have been holding their breaths right? Okay lets continue on and learn some more fascinating facts. I hope I peeked your interest with this little bit that I provided now the continuation of�.

Delivery of the Jews from Egyptian Slavery

The sun- dried bricks of the store cities, which can be seen in the Cairo museum, are stamped with the words �Ramses.� You can see that some of them are bound with straw, others only with stubble, and finally, some of them are made without straw or other binding substance. All this corroborates the decree Pharaoh as recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, giving the command that the Israelites should no longer be supplied with straw.
The Bible says that ten plagues were sent by God upon the Egyptians to induce them to let the Jewish slaves go. The last ten plague was the death of all first-born, beginning with the first-born of Pharaoh, who sat on his throne.
If the assertion of the Bible is correct9and we know that it is-my assertion), the son of Amenhotep the Second, the Pharaoh during the Exodus, must have died in that judgment. Amenhotep the Second himself died in 1423 B.C., and followed by Thomas the Fourth. On large red granite block which is called the dream inscription of Thomes the Fourth. In this, we are told that this future Pharaoh when young fell asleep and dreamed that a sphinx came to him and startled him with prophecy that he would one day become King of Egypt.
Since the law of primogeniture held good in Egypt, he could not have been Amenhotep�s eldest son, or the hope�s of his accession would not have been so remote that he would be amazed by the promise of the sphinx. So the first-born of pharaoh must have died in the tenth plague.
Is this not a strange confirmation of the biblical account?
Ancient Egyptian history is quite well-known. There are many records. But not a one speaks about the disappearance of the Egyptian army and its king in the sea, skeptics point out.
I would like to know which nation has ever been keen about registering its defeats. When the soviet army retreated from the borders to Stalingrad, Stalin did not publicize theirs when the tide turned. The Egyptian historians cared as a little about objective truth as their modern counterparts.
In this manner we do not have the Egyptian side of the story. That is all. But we have the Bible, which tells not only the Jewish side, but God�s word and God�s wonders. There is no reason to disbelieve the wonderful deliverance of the slaves, though it may be unpleasant for slaveholders and their flatterers.
In the imperial palace in Tokyo are kept three signs of the Japanese empire-a very old sword, a diamond, and a mirror of the great king. On the back of the mirror are inscribed some letters which have only recently been deciphered in Japan. After the Second World War, a brother of the emperor, the Prince Takahito Mikasa, began to inquire into Judaism. When the emperor was visited by Rabbi Goldmann of the Beth-Israel temple in Hertford, who was the executive chairman of the National Jewish Welfare Commission, the prince took care that the Rabbi should see this mirror of the great emperor. Without any difficulty the Rabbi was able to identify the letters as the Hebrew words Ehjeh Asher Ehjeh-I AM WHO I AM. The very words of the Bible found in Exodus 3:14
Immediately the prince and the rabbi began to speculate about how these Jewish words recorded by Moses in the Bible came to be found on an ancient sacred object of the Japanese. They supposed that in times of old, during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews, members of the ten tribes of Israel had brought this mirror as a present to the ruling emperor.
In 1941, the Japanese bishop Jujai Nakada published a book called Japan in the Bible Reing on documents of ancient times, he says that in the year A.D. 216, one hundred thousand men came from the Middle East to Japan. The Hata called themselves Israj, which is much akin to Israel. They spoke about a great leader, whom they called prince Hata Kawa Katsu, who as a babe was rescued from the water, was then brought up in the palace of the king, and eventually freed from bondage of slavery. In this form the Biblical story of Moses came to Japan.
The extra biblical proofs of history as recorded by the Holy Scriptures are too numerous to be mentioned. They certainly can not be discarded.

Peter Kirby · 09-27-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Okay lets continue on and learn some more fascinating facts. I hope I peeked your interest with this little bit that I provided now the continuation of�

Actually, I kind of lost interest because you have not interacted with Celsus and me over what you already posted. What's the point of further responses if they will be ignored? So let's talk about the posts made by Celsus and by me, to show your interest in actually discussing the stuff.

best,
Peter Kirby

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Hope's daughter,

Did you miss the clear subtext that those who doubt Exodus are trying to promote slavery? Ridiculous and insulting agitprop.

Now, if you want to talk archaeology, I can do that. We have some people like Celsus here who are quite knowledgeable of the archaeology of the Jews and could also chime in.

I must admit that I was not familiar with this 1923 find. But, if it's legit, it must be in Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10,000-586 B.C.E. by Amihai Mazar. Perhaps someone could look it up. It's at my uni library, and should be in many others.

When I punched "Khabiri" and "Armana" into Google, there is a single result, the Catholic Encyclopedia, which says:

"Like all the land of Chanaan, Jerusalem had been for many centuries in subjection to Chaldea; after Abraham's time it passed under the domination of Egypt. About the year 1400, while Israel was dreaming of liberation from the Egyptian yoke, certain Cossean peoples, called Khabiri, invaded Palestine, probably at the instigation of the Chaldeans or the Hethites, and took possession of the strongholds. Abd Hiba, king of U-ru-sa-lim, seeing his capital menaced, dispatched six letters in succession to his suzerain, Amenophis III, imploring succour. But in vain; Egypt herself was then undergoing a crisis. It was probably at this period that Jerusalem fell into the power of the Jebusites, who called it Jebus."

Oh, so that's what Jebus means!

Now the CE is no harbinger of liberal speculation but rather presents the facts in the best light of faith. So what is the actual evidence for identifying Khabiri with Israelites? As they are regarded here as "certain Cossean peoples."

And to say that the Moses of Exodus really was active while Ramses II reigned is not without its problems. The Christian writer Gonzalo Baez-Camargo writes, "Ex 2:5--the daughter of Pharaoh. It has not been possible to identify this princess. If the pharaoh of the oppression was Ramses II (see comment on 1:8), she must have been his daughter. There seems to exist, however, no notice whatever about her in Egyptian documents. It has been suggested that she was Hatshepsut, the daughter of Thutmose I, who became Queen of Egypt upon the premature death of her brother and husband Thutmose II. This identification would require the adoption of the so-called long chronology (see comment on 1:8), which is not now generally accepted among scholars." (Archaeological Commentary on the Bible, p. 34)

Moreover, Merneptah was the son of Ramses II, and Exodus 2:23 refers to the death of the pharaoh of the oppression, meaning that Merneptah would have to be pharaoh when the sea was parted and the chariots engulfed in water. Yet the triumphal stele of Pharaoh Merneptah (about 1220 BCE), in recounting the military exploits in the land of Canaan, says in line 27 that "Israel is laid waste; his seed is not." This means that the tribe of Israel was already established in Palestine when Merneptah was pharaoh, and Ramses II and Merneptah cannot be the figures in the biblical story, which tells nothing of them conquering the Israelites in the holy land.

On the other hand, applying an older date to the Exodus is not without its own difficulties, and the whole matter is explored carefully in Out of the Desert?: Archaeology and the Exodus/Conquest Narratives by William H. Stiebing Jr.

best,
Peter Kirby

Kirby,

Thanks for the info and also the links. I do believe certain forms of government impose a kind of slavery upon their people. Communism is just such a system that seeks to control the mind of the populace as well as the will.

I have a video I obtained from Jews for Jesus called The Exodus Revealed Search for the Red Sea Crossing It gives some wonderful facts and sheds light on many of these mysteries. If there is enough who think it would be a benefit I could watch it and take notes (I have actually done this before on these boards without anyones knowledge of the fact) and post them. I take excellent notes by the way. Very concise. Also this would help to disprove the rumor I am incoherent or have some mental problem. As you can see and read and understand my words just fine.

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Kirby
Actually, I kind of lost interest because you have not interacted with Celsus and me over what you already posted. What's the point of further responses if they will be ignored? So let's talk about the posts made by Celsus and by me, to show your interest in actually discussing the stuff.

best,
Peter Kirby

Kirby you spoke to soon I have heard about later dates for Exodus being given and have no comment. That is why I suggested the video. I am now getting back to this thread to read it. I think you are impatient. Do I get an apology? I doubt it.

Peter Kirby · 09-27-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Kirby you spoke to soon I have heard about later dates for Exodus being given and have no comment. That is why I suggested the video. I am now getting back to this thread to read it. I think you are impatient. Do I get an apology? I doubt it.

Maybe I'm impatient, maybe I have assumptions about how a discussion proceeds that you don't also have.

As for the "later dates for Exodus" in the time Ramses II, that is the one advocated by your source, when he said, "They do not know about the inscribed stone of the time Ramses II. found at Beisan in 1923, stating that he employed captive Semites (in the Tell-el-Amarna tablets the Hebrews under the name 'Khabiri') to build a city named after him."

Most videos are pap. Books are where it's at.

best,
Peter Kirby

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
hope's daughter,

This is not a general religious discussion. This is clearly a Biblical Criticism and History topic. I am moving this thread to the appropriate forum.

Thanks.

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
The Exodus is not history, as Wilhelm Tell from Swiss is no history and Donald Duck is no history. Because they have had no DVD player they sit down and were telling dramatic stories about the sense of being here in this imperfect world.

doormann.tripod.com/pass1.htm

Volker

Don't the Muslims also recognize the Exodus as being history?

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
I'll assume, firstly, that the Atheist's Handbook is trash. Then I'll assume that "The answer to the Atheist's Handbook" is further rubbish. I'd like to see the year both books were published. I'm having a difficult time convincing J.P. Holding that Evangelicals are at least 30-50 years out of date.

Is this hope's daughter talking? Please, show us your archaeological knowledge.

The point is moot. The 'Apiru/Habiru/Khabiri (that term itself is no longer used)/etc. connection with Hebrew people has been discredited long ago (it was first spotted in the 19th century so I don't see how someone could cite a 1923 find except that he is incredibly unqualified to write a book on archaeology). Further, the existence of Semite people in Egypt is well-attested, particularly under the reign of the Semite Hyksos during the 17th and 16th centuries BCE. Josephus even mentions them as the ancestors of the Jews in Contra Apion (IIRC) There is even stronger attestation for the 'Apiru in the Amarna letters (discovered 1888, dated to around the 14th-13th centuries, smack in the midde of the supposed Exodus), but the discrediting of the connection is more due to the generic nature of the term 'Apiru than anything else--Neils Peter Lemche, in Prelude to Israel's Past: Background and Beginnings to Israel's Past (1998), has some pointed criticisms:
For [late 19th century scholars], the linguistic connection between habiru and the Hebrew 'ibr� was unmistakable. . . .

Two subsequent observations upset these initial and pervasive notions. First, in the Amarna collection, the Hebrews are confined to the letters from Jerusalem and are never mentioned in any letters asided from EA 285-290. This is a bit odd as Jerusalem should be the last place to look for Hebrews; rather, according to 1-2 Samuel, Jerusalem only came into Israelite hands much later, when David conquered the city. Second, it is equally strange that the habiru are absent in letters posted from Shechem, although Abdi-Heba [a king of Jerusalem responsible for the Amarna correspondence--see Peter's quote of the Catholic Encyclopaedia (is it the 1902 edition available on line?) refering to Abd Heba] refers to the habiru as being active in the vincinity of Shechem. Here the local prince, the notorious Laba'yu, formed an alliance with the habiru to overturn Egyptian rule, at least according to Abdi-Heba's letters. . .

The Amarna letters mention another group in terms strikingly similar to the ones Abdi-Heba used for the habiru. When the letters were deciphered, scholars were not in doubt as to the identity of this group. This time the group did not carry a Semitic name but a Sumerian name, in several variations: SA.GAZ, SAG.GAZ, or simply GAZ. However the German Orientalist Hugo Winckler soon unlocked the key to this mystery. He discovered that the SA.GAZ was actually another name for the habiru [From footnote: This was confirmed in the Hattusas documents, which used both terms to describe the same group.] The discovery had profound effects. Now it would be incorrect to say that there were too few references to the Hebrews' alias, the habiru; on the contrary there were far too many and from almost every part of the Near East! And more references followed as new texts were found and deciphered. Habiru now showed up in every possible place--even in places never frequented by the forefathers of the Israelites. In short, we possess references to the habiru peope living in such remote places as Asia Minor, Egypt, Elam (modern Persia), as well as in Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia. Moreover, the references are not limited to the Amarna period [1400-1200 BCE] or the Late Bronze Age; they practically litter documents covering all of the second millenium B.C.E.

pp. 138-139

In short, hope's daughter, the find is of no use to you and the fact that the author is unaware of Winckler's deciphering and the subsequent rash of finds puts him several decades out of date. Please try harder next time.

Joel

I still think what he continued to reveal is interesting...about the Japanese and the men from the middle east. I must say I do not know alot about archeology but many specific finds are supported by the Bible such as UR. So you really can't just throw the Bible out as hog wash and neither can you throw out this book. It was written by an ex-atheist for atheists and you would find it to your taste. It is put out by Voice of the Martyrs. 1975 is what it states. Rev. Wurmbrand wrote it and was in communist prison in Romania for 15 years. Can you imagine surviving as a Christian that long with out a Bible to look at and being able to witness to your captors? His heart remained softened due to God's Love. This is what I ask God for right now. LORD do not let bitterness spring up in my heart. But change my heart to open wide to those who have hurt me.

Weltall · 09-27-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hope's daughter
Don't the Muslims also recognize the Exodus as being history?

Completely irrelevant. We're discussing whether or not Exodus is historical, not who believes that it is.

hope's daughter · 09-27-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Weltall
Completely irrelevant. We're discussing whether or not Exodus is historical, not who believes that it is.

I gather from your statement you are in the not believe line?

09-27-2003, 07:41 PM	#21
hope's daughter Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: middle earth Posts: 601	More facts.... I am sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to this thread and posts the rest of the chapter. I know everyone must have been holding their breaths right? Okay lets continue on and learn some more fascinating facts. I hope I peeked your interest with this little bit that I provided now the continuation of�. Delivery of the Jews from Egyptian Slavery The sun- dried bricks of the store cities, which can be seen in the Cairo museum, are stamped with the words �Ramses.� You can see that some of them are bound with straw, others only with stubble, and finally, some of them are made without straw or other binding substance. All this corroborates the decree Pharaoh as recorded in the biblical Book of Exodus, giving the command that the Israelites should no longer be supplied with straw. The Bible says that ten plagues were sent by God upon the Egyptians to induce them to let the Jewish slaves go. The last ten plague was the death of all first-born, beginning with the first-born of Pharaoh, who sat on his throne. If the assertion of the Bible is correct9and we know that it is-my assertion), the son of Amenhotep the Second, the Pharaoh during the Exodus, must have died in that judgment. Amenhotep the Second himself died in 1423 B.C., and followed by Thomas the Fourth. On large red granite block which is called the dream inscription of Thomes the Fourth. In this, we are told that this future Pharaoh when young fell asleep and dreamed that a sphinx came to him and startled him with prophecy that he would one day become King of Egypt. Since the law of primogeniture held good in Egypt, he could not have been Amenhotep�s eldest son, or the hope�s of his accession would not have been so remote that he would be amazed by the promise of the sphinx. So the first-born of pharaoh must have died in the tenth plague. Is this not a strange confirmation of the biblical account? Ancient Egyptian history is quite well-known. There are many records. But not a one speaks about the disappearance of the Egyptian army and its king in the sea, skeptics point out. I would like to know which nation has ever been keen about registering its defeats. When the soviet army retreated from the borders to Stalingrad, Stalin did not publicize theirs when the tide turned. The Egyptian historians cared as a little about objective truth as their modern counterparts. In this manner we do not have the Egyptian side of the story. That is all. But we have the Bible, which tells not only the Jewish side, but God�s word and God�s wonders. There is no reason to disbelieve the wonderful deliverance of the slaves, though it may be unpleasant for slaveholders and their flatterers. In the imperial palace in Tokyo are kept three signs of the Japanese empire-a very old sword, a diamond, and a mirror of the great king. On the back of the mirror are inscribed some letters which have only recently been deciphered in Japan. After the Second World War, a brother of the emperor, the Prince Takahito Mikasa, began to inquire into Judaism. When the emperor was visited by Rabbi Goldmann of the Beth-Israel temple in Hertford, who was the executive chairman of the National Jewish Welfare Commission, the prince took care that the Rabbi should see this mirror of the great emperor. Without any difficulty the Rabbi was able to identify the letters as the Hebrew words Ehjeh Asher Ehjeh-I AM WHO I AM. The very words of the Bible found in Exodus 3:14 Immediately the prince and the rabbi began to speculate about how these Jewish words recorded by Moses in the Bible came to be found on an ancient sacred object of the Japanese. They supposed that in times of old, during the Babylonian captivity of the Jews, members of the ten tribes of Israel had brought this mirror as a present to the ruling emperor. In 1941, the Japanese bishop Jujai Nakada published a book called Japan in the Bible Reing on documents of ancient times, he says that in the year A.D. 216, one hundred thousand men came from the Middle East to Japan. The Hata called themselves Israj, which is much akin to Israel. They spoke about a great leader, whom they called prince Hata Kawa Katsu, who as a babe was rescued from the water, was then brought up in the palace of the king, and eventually freed from bondage of slavery. In this form the Biblical story of Moses came to Japan. The extra biblical proofs of history as recorded by the Holy Scriptures are too numerous to be mentioned. They certainly can not be discarded.

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