Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thomas II · 03-12-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

I'm attempting a serious study of ancient mediterranean 'magic'. Thanks. Any scholarly online/offline references are welcome.

Google it,then!! :wave:

Ben C Smith · 03-12-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Ben, thanks for the great post. That is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for, at least with respect to Angelology. I read Enoch 20 in full just now from Charlesworth's Pseudepigrapha, but I have never read the whole thing. I'm curious if you know...does it shed a lot of light on the cryptic book of Revelation?

IMHO it sheds quite a bit of light on much of the NT, including and perhaps especially Revelation. It is one of our main sources for what appears to be pretty standard Jewish apocalyptic expectations in second temple Judaism.

ETA: Be careful about the book as a whole. Scholars typically divide it into five sections, and four of those five sections are represented in the Dead Sea scrolls, and are therefore indisputably Jewish and not Christian; but the fifth, chapters 37-71, are not, and may be a later Christian addition. It is this section that contains the famous son of man sayings that provide some parallels to certain synoptic gospel sayings.

Quote:

If you know anything about ancient magic, please put in your two cents.

Not much; sorry. Have you tried Betz?

Ben.

ApostateAbe · 03-12-2006, 07:39 PM

It is plausible to me that Jesus could have been an illusionist. Michael Shermer made that suggestion in Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on the Bible, saying that Penn and Teller could perfom many of the tricks Jesus supposedly performed. And Penn and Teller do perform those tricks on the show.

An early version of the Jewish Talmud calls Jesus (or a man named Yeshu) "a magician and a fool." It is ambiguous what "magician" means and it is disputed whether or not "Yeshu" refers to Jesus Christ or some other Jesus.

Sheshbazzar · 03-12-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Now that you mention it, during the wedding at Canaan Jesus apparently transformed regular water into a first rate wine...
A magical act?... Suggestion?...A miracle by a god?...
Take your pick...
Did it happen at all?
Suppose it did happen...
If you believe Jesus is a god, then he did a miracle.
If you don't believe he is god...what did he do then?

KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID, TASTES GREAT! WISH WE HAD SOME! CAN"T WAIT! :wave:

I just couldn't resist it

jjramsey · 03-12-2006, 08:04 PM

John P. Meier discussed this in A Marginal Jew. One big difference between attempts at miracles and attempts at magic is that the latter tends to involve a lot of ritual rigamarole that often has to be done just so. In the Gospels, the most we see on that score is Jesus using mud and/or spit, and saying a few comprehensible words (as opposed to a long incantation with nonsense syllables).

NZSkep · 03-12-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dajumbles

Jesus was not a magician He was God! I mean like the God who created the universe God, the God who could think a word, and the world would end, the God who has complete dominion over every thing in the world. This goes without messing with free will.

don;t want to derail this thread but if Jesus was god, why did he ask himself why he had forsaken himself just before he died? Wouldn't he already know?

Thomas II · 03-12-2006, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID, TASTES GREAT! WISH WE HAD SOME! CAN"T WAIT! :wave:

I just couldn't resist it

Thomas II · 03-12-2006, 08:50 PM

I find it relevant that Jesus told the servants to fill the pots with water,THEN he "turned the water into wine".
Why couldn't he just fill the pots with wine directly?
It seems like there had to be one ELEMENT(Water)present BEFORE he could turn it into wine...hmmm...Why that condition for an omnipotent god?:huh:
All that we know after that is that they liked the wine.
There is no indication of what Jesus told the water so that it would turn into wine, but obviously he made the water an offer it could not refuse...

Thomas II · 03-12-2006, 09:21 PM

You might find this interesting:
http://www.perillos.com/arise.html

Buster Daily · 03-12-2006, 09:29 PM

I think that the authors of the gospels witnessed the works of several people that we would call magicians.

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03-12-2006, 07:39 PM	#13
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	It is plausible to me that Jesus could have been an illusionist. Michael Shermer made that suggestion in Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on the Bible, saying that Penn and Teller could perfom many of the tricks Jesus supposedly performed. And Penn and Teller do perform those tricks on the show. An early version of the Jewish Talmud calls Jesus (or a man named Yeshu) "a magician and a fool." It is ambiguous what "magician" means and it is disputed whether or not "Yeshu" refers to Jesus Christ or some other Jesus.

03-12-2006, 08:04 PM	#15
jjramsey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tallmadge, Ohio Posts: 808	John P. Meier discussed this in A Marginal Jew. One big difference between attempts at miracles and attempts at magic is that the latter tends to involve a lot of ritual rigamarole that often has to be done just so. In the Gospels, the most we see on that score is Jesus using mud and/or spit, and saying a few comprehensible words (as opposed to a long incantation with nonsense syllables).

03-12-2006, 08:50 PM	#18
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	I find it relevant that Jesus told the servants to fill the pots with water,THEN he "turned the water into wine". Why couldn't he just fill the pots with wine directly? It seems like there had to be one ELEMENT(Water)present BEFORE he could turn it into wine...hmmm...Why that condition for an omnipotent god?:huh: All that we know after that is that they liked the wine. There is no indication of what Jesus told the water so that it would turn into wine, but obviously he made the water an offer it could not refuse...

03-12-2006, 09:21 PM	#19
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	You might find this interesting: http://www.perillos.com/arise.html

03-12-2006, 09:29 PM	#20
Buster Daily Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	I think that the authors of the gospels witnessed the works of several people that we would call magicians.

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