TedM

Joe asked,

Three:

1 Peter 2:24 perhaps since the author says he was a witness

1 John 3:16 perhaps since it says he laid down his life for us and since the author seems to be saying he saw and touched Jesus himself in the first verses

The passion account of the Gospel of John since the author claims to have been the beloved disciple


ted

PyramidHead

Anything not from the very text whose historical validity is currently under question?

Headache

"This book claims to be 100% true!"
"Do you have any evidence for this claim?"
"Yes, this book that claims to be 100% true!"
Oh brother!

TedM

Nope. Josephus is closest since he was raised in Galilee.

ted

Headache

And Josephus is trustworthy because????

Tiberius

Because he says what they want to hear.

Mythra

Let's say for the sake of discussion, that the two passages in Josephus are genuine. With the exception of the phrase "he was the Christ" - which no one (that I'm aware of) accepts.

How exactly does that prove (in the least) the resurrection (or even just crucifixion) of Christ?

In my mind, it proves precisely one thing. That there was a christian tradition in place at the end of the first century. Josephus had no first-hand knowledge. That much is obvious.

And so, he gets his information second-hand. From some source. And we have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that his source was anything but someone - or someones - who were believers.

I mean, we do think, do we not, that at least GMark was in existence at the time Josephus wrote "Antiquities" ? Perhaps GMark (in some form) was his ONLY source of information concerning Christ. But he was unsure of it's authenticity, and so he gave it a tiny "honorable mention".

I just fail to see how Josephus is of any value at all to the christian apologists' case.

stuart shepherd

IMO there are two traditions concerning the death of Jesus.
The gospels tell the story that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.

But there is another tradition in the New Testament that Jesus was executed by the Jews according to the Law given by God through Moses.

Look at these Scriptures.
Acts 5:30 (King James Version)
30The God of our fathers[the God of the Jews] raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39 (King James Version)
39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they[the Jews] slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts 13:27-29 (King James Version)
27For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

28And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

29And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

IMO, these three Scriptures are saying that Jesus was executed by the Jews, and not by the Romans. That his corpse was displayed on a tree, not on a cross and then he was buried on the day he died before sundown.
This "fits" with Mosaic law as to how a criminal is executed. See the following from the Law.

Deuteronomy 21:21-23 (King James Version)
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

23His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

The Apostle Paul seemed to believe that Jesus died according to Jewish law.
Galatians 3:13 (King James Version)
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You will notice that Paul quoted from Deut 21:23.BOLDED.

Stuart Shepherd

JoeWallack

JW:
I was kind of hoping someone would mention this. Before we even look at 1 Peter 2:24 I don't think the author knew Jesus. Do you? If the author did not know Jesus than we have evidence that someone who did not know Jesus wrote that he knew Jesus and witnessed a crucifixion that he did not witness. Is that evidence for HJ or MJ or AJ?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

TedM

Under your assumptions you are correct. Belief in the resurrection is a matter of faith. However under your assumptions Josephus is of tremendous value for the HJ camp that says Jesus walked this earth, preached, was crucified, and believed to have been resurrected.

ted