post tenebras lux

Allusion?

I think you mean that the first time we find this passage almost word for word was in the writings of St Sulpicius. Later, as in 700 years later, it's 'found' in Tacitus. St Sulpicius doesn't claim to have found it in Tacitus and no one else mentions it being in Tacitus until the Monte Cassino copy turns up. Odd that.

Here it is (St Sulpicius' Chronicles) for those of you who read latin.

Roger Pearse

Easily.

Tabulate with quotations all uses of the term in ancient literature. It will become evident from such a table what the term means.

I hope that does not sound as if I am being awkward. But surely the same is true for anything that we want to know about. Let's disregard our preconceptions, and just tabulate the data. Then let it speak. Often there is so little data that a single web page can hold it.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Have some links:

Book 1 of Sulpicius Severus in English
Book 2 Sulpicius Severus in English
Information about Mss of Tacitus

I'm not sure that I understand your comments, so please bear with me. Where in Sulpicius Severus is there a verbatim quotation of Annals 15.44?

I'm not sure how we get this "700 years". Tacitus *wrote* around 100; the oldest existing manuscript *copy* from the middle ages was written in the 11th century. Sulpicius Severus *wrote* in the 4th century; the oldest existing manuscript *copy* of his work was written ... when? (Probably also in the middle ages, in the 9-12th century). It sounds as if the common confusion between the date of composition and date of first manuscript has come in here?

You also say that no-one else mentions the passage being in Tacitus until the Monte Cassino copy turns up. I'm not sure what your point is; the renaissance is *the* rediscovery of ancient literature. Before then, by definition, the classics went largely unread.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

xaxxat

I prefer to call them "Oily Ones"...

andrewcriddle

IF you mean that the passage in Tacitus could straightforwardly have been inserted by somone who knew Sulpicius then IMO you're wrong.

Some of the most Tacitean phrases and those least likely to have been composed by a Christian have no parallel in Sulpicius. Eg 'but the dangerous superstition though suppressed for the moment broke out again not only in Judea the origin of this evil but even in the city where all atrocious and shameful things flow together from all sides and are practised'.

Andrew Criddle

triffidfood

Clivedurdle

But that is my point - what term? Is xian and messiah seeker the same thing?

Think of this as the opposite to Hoover. There a specific term is used generically. Why should not a generic term get attached to a specific group? That has happened with Apple.

Roger Pearse

I'm not sure that I understand. But the word 'Christian' (with variant Chrestian) can be searched for. Whatever word in Greek='Messiah seeker', then look for that. Then see whether they overlap.

Indeed. And how do we find out? We take the specific word and search through the literature and tabulate all the instances. Unless I am hopelessly misunderstanding here...?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

Christ

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none

So it used to be Jesus the healer and christians are healerists! More druidic links for what is really a pagan religion pretending not to be!

yummyfur

Only if you think the earliest Christian's spoke Old English and lived in Britain. Also the Old English Haelend, also means Saviour, so not really all that suprising a term for English speakers to use.