Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SLD · 05-25-2006, 09:51 PM

OK, for those of you following events in CSS forum, we've been discussing a group called BattleCry a strange evangelical group that calls for violence in favor of the kingdom of God. They use this quote from the NRSV: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12.

The NIV translates this differently: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it."

The KJV is closer to the NRSV.

Is the NIV just being a little wussy here, using the word force instead of violent? Which translation is closer to the original meaning?

TIA

SLD

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-25-2006, 10:48 PM

The KJV would be technically correct as far as I can tell, but the Greek uses a passive form of the verb biazo ("use force/ use violence") when it says that ..."the kingdom of heaven biazetai kai biastai harpazousin auten. I'm not exactly sure how biazetai could most literally be rendered passively but "suffers violence" would be a logical guess. The NIV's translation of "forcefully advancing" would render the verb in the active voice instead of the passive (which would seem to be wrong) but there may be some quirk of grammatical usage for this verb which I'm unaware of.

The most literal translation I can offer would be "...the kingdom of heaven [undergoes?] violence/force and the strong/violent/forceful take it by force/violence."

Anyway, the implications of either "force" or "violence" are both resonable translations so I think the question is about exactly how biazetai should be translated. I can't see anything obviously wrong with the KJV translation.

Toto · 05-25-2006, 11:58 PM

Young's Literal Translation (from biblegateway.com):

Quote:

12 And, from the days of John the Baptist till now, the reign of the heavens doth suffer violence, and violent men do take it by force,

This page discusses various standard interpretations and then proposes that something was lost in the translation from Hebrew [?] to Greek, and that the reference is to Micah, and to sheep breaking out of an enclosure.

Quote:

Robert H. Mounce offers some more insight into the Greek and tells us that,

'The interpretation of verse 12 has been discussed at length. One's approach turns on whether biazetai is passive ('has suffered violence') or middle ('has been coming violently'). Because the noun biastai (forceful men)' by-aides-zeh-tie, 'that occurs in the parallel clause is used in a negative sense (the cognate verb biao means 'to defraud, cheat, or overpower'), it is better to take biazetai as passive and translate 'has been enduring violent assault' (Weymouth). Jesus is saying that ever since the days of John the Baptist the kingdom of heaven has been under assault by violent men who are trying to overcome it by force. These men are sometimes identified as Zealots who want to force the kingdom's arrival. More likely they are like Herod, who imprisoned John, and the Jewish antagonists of the gospel.'11

But

Quote:

'The difficulty here is that Mt. is concerned with the prophets, the Law, the Baptist, Jesus and the bah-sil-lee-ah (Kingdom). 'It is thus hard to see the point of a special reference to an irrelevant subject when we naturally expect an important insight on the situation depicted. In any case the Zealot movement had already been started before the appearance of John.

An alternative explanation from Alfred Edersheim

Quote:

'When we remember, that in 'the Sermon on the Mount' the call was only to 'enter in,' we feel that we have now reached a period, when the access to 'the narrow door' was obstructed by the enmity of so many, and when it needed 'violence' to break through, and 'take the Kingdom' 'by force (Matt. 11:12). This personal breaking through the opposing multitude, in order to enter in through the narrow door, was in opposition to the many - the Pharisees and Jews generally - who were seeking to enter in, in their own way, never doubting success, but who would discover their terrible mistake.'16

'From the time that John began to preach the Kingdom, hindrances of every kind had been raised. To overcome them and enter the Kingdom, it required, as it were, violence like that to enter a city which was surrounded by a hostile army.

Toto · 05-26-2006, 12:04 AM

This is not the only place where some violent imagery is applied to Christians or the Lord. There is Luke 11:21, with its analogy to overcoming a strong man by taking away his armor and breaking into his house.

I don't think that any of this is meant to justify armed rebellion, or burglary.

pharoah · 05-26-2006, 12:49 AM

I see that a verse that shows that Matthew is a post-70 AD production. The "kingdom of heaven" couldn't have suffered or administered any appreciable amount of violence between the short time that JTB started his ministry and the time of Jesus's ministry. The author is clearly referring to the Roman-Jewish War.

This is a strange verse for BattleCry to rally around. There are far clearer calls for violence in the gospels than this one.

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-26-2006, 06:21 AM

The Complete Gospels: Annotated Scholars Version has this to say about Mt. 11:12 (p.77)

Quote:

The Greek grammar here is very difficult. The more traditional translation would be "Heaven's imperial rule is suffering violence." Such a translation has been justified by the notion that Heaven's imperial rule must be peaceful. However, the normal use of the verb in Greek is not passive but active: Heaven's imperial rule breaks in violently.

RUmike · 05-26-2006, 07:58 AM

To throw another translation out there... My professor, who was on the panel for the Jesus Seminar's translation of the gospels, gave us a book of his translations that he first submitted to the panel. Here is his translation:

"From the time of John the Baptist until now, Heaven's kingship is in force. And forceful people violate it."

anthony93 · 05-26-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

I see that a verse that shows that Matthew is a post-70 AD production. The "kingdom of heaven" couldn't have suffered or administered any appreciable amount of violence between the short time that JTB started his ministry and the time of Jesus's ministry. The author is clearly referring to the Roman-Jewish War.

Maybe, but the Gospel of Thomas, saying 98
Jesus said, `The kingdom of the father is like a certain man who wanted to kill a powerful man. In his own house he drew his sword and stuck it into the wall in order to find out whether his hand could carry through. Then he slew the powerful man.`

uses similarly violent imagery (metaphorically) to describe the "Kingdom of the Father". Is it possible that Matthew is a reflection (maybe garbled) of an older layer of source material?

05-25-2006, 09:51 PM	#1
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Violent Mistranslation of the Bible? OK, for those of you following events in CSS forum, we've been discussing a group called BattleCry a strange evangelical group that calls for violence in favor of the kingdom of God. They use this quote from the NRSV: "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12. The NIV translates this differently: "From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it." The KJV is closer to the NRSV. Is the NIV just being a little wussy here, using the word force instead of violent? Which translation is closer to the original meaning? TIA SLD

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05-25-2006, 10:48 PM	#2
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	The KJV would be technically correct as far as I can tell, but the Greek uses a passive form of the verb biazo ("use force/ use violence") when it says that ..."the kingdom of heaven biazetai kai biastai harpazousin auten. I'm not exactly sure how biazetai could most literally be rendered passively but "suffers violence" would be a logical guess. The NIV's translation of "forcefully advancing" would render the verb in the active voice instead of the passive (which would seem to be wrong) but there may be some quirk of grammatical usage for this verb which I'm unaware of. The most literal translation I can offer would be "...the kingdom of heaven [undergoes?] violence/force and the strong/violent/forceful take it by force/violence." Anyway, the implications of either "force" or "violence" are both resonable translations so I think the question is about exactly how biazetai should be translated. I can't see anything obviously wrong with the KJV translation.

05-26-2006, 12:04 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is not the only place where some violent imagery is applied to Christians or the Lord. There is Luke 11:21, with its analogy to overcoming a strong man by taking away his armor and breaking into his house. I don't think that any of this is meant to justify armed rebellion, or burglary.

05-26-2006, 12:49 AM	#5
pharoah Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,729	I see that a verse that shows that Matthew is a post-70 AD production. The "kingdom of heaven" couldn't have suffered or administered any appreciable amount of violence between the short time that JTB started his ministry and the time of Jesus's ministry. The author is clearly referring to the Roman-Jewish War. This is a strange verse for BattleCry to rally around. There are far clearer calls for violence in the gospels than this one.

05-26-2006, 07:58 AM	#7
RUmike Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 491	To throw another translation out there... My professor, who was on the panel for the Jesus Seminar's translation of the gospels, gave us a book of his translations that he first submitted to the panel. Here is his translation: "From the time of John the Baptist until now, Heaven's kingship is in force. And forceful people violate it."

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