Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Disarray · 10-15-2004, 05:06 PM

Is the bible actually pro-choice?

This article:

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

...makes a very effective argument that the bible is not pro-life. (I found this article from this site some time ago) My knowledge of the original texts of the bible is small, so I cannot make a good judgement on the author's arguments about the Hebrew.

My concern regarding this, is the fact that many people will be voting for Bush in the upcoming election solely for his pro-life stance.

My happy rainbow dream, would be to convince the Catholic church that abortion is not against God's law before this election, and have them proclaim that a vote for Kerry is not a sin.

Of course that won't happen, but for the many Christians in this country who do not believe the proclamations of the Church are the direct word and law of God, I think there exists the chance of them becoming aware of this before the election, possibly creating a significant difference in it.

Does anyone have any input on whether the bible can be considered pro-choice; and whether there is a way to make an impact on the contemporary perspective of Christians in our society regarding abortion before the election?

Since this is my first post, I suppose a little introduction is appropriate: I'd like to say that I have a lot of respect for this site. I've been lurking around for awhile, and will likely post here semi-regularly. I think this site sets a good standard for arguments on the internet, and I intend to do my small part to keep it that way when I do post here.

Hyndis · 10-15-2004, 05:33 PM

First off, welcome to the boards. And may the IPU have mercy on your soul. :devil3:

And secondly, I think you're in the wrong forum. If you want to debate the ethics of abortion, we've got plenty of threads here for that. But if you want to debate the Bible's position on abortion, then it would probably be off to BC&H, since those folks are much more knowledgable about picking apart ancient texts.

So, off to BC&H. If things get leaning more towards the ethics of it, then the mods over there will boot it back to here.

andrewcriddle · 10-15-2004, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disarray

Is the bible actually pro-choice?

This article…

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html

...makes a very effective argument that the bible is not pro-life. (I found this article from this site some time ago) My knowledge of the original texts of the bible is small, so I cannot make a good judgement on the author’s arguments about the Hebrew.

What Exodus 21:22-25 is saying IMO is that the killing of a foetus before birth is a bad thing but not nearly as bad as the killing of someone after birth.

(For evidence that the passage refers to a miscarriage causing the death of the embryo but not necessarily harming the mother see the commentary in the Mishnah Baba Qamma 5:4 )

Whether in modern America this is pro-life or pro-choice is another matter.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 10-15-2004, 05:58 PM

Hi Disarray - welcome to the boards, which are about to go down for maintenance this weekend.

I think it is fair to say that people in Biblical times did not believe that life begins at conception, and this is reflected in several passages of the Bible. Early Christians were opposed to abortions, which were fairly messy and dangerous in the first century.

There are some old discussions on this topic, which you can find using the search engine, or which I will find later.

Casper · 10-15-2004, 06:29 PM

In a society where women are treated like cattle, the causation of a miscarriage might be acceptable, if distasteful.

Tell us, do you equate women with livestock?

Disarray · 10-15-2004, 06:52 PM

Hyndis, thanks for the welcome

, and redirecting my post.

Toto, thank you also, board goes down now?!!??!!? :banghead:

Casper, no.

I'm not speaking of my opinion on the morality of abortion. I'm looking for an understanding of the bible's position, and whether people who hate bush but will still vote for him because Kerry is pro-choice, will reconsider with a more detailed understanding of the bible. Thank you for the response.

And I'm looking into that now Andrew.

Lugubert · 10-17-2004, 07:23 AM

I wonder why the linked article didn't mention the instructions in Num. 5.

The reason might be that the KJV uses a rather veiled language for the Hebrew words in Num. 5:21: "make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell". The Revised English Bible takes a clear stance : "bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth".

A footnote in the Swedish Bibel 2000 mentions interpretations like miscarriage, sterility and painful illnesses.

In spite of the different nuances used, I read the chapter as a manual for abortion plus sterilization.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR · 10-17-2004, 02:25 PM

The writer of the article:

Quote:

Actually, I will stop short of making that claim. In fact, I will stop short of making the claim that the Bible condemns or supports abortion at all. It does neither. The condemning and supporting comes not from the words of the Bible but from leaders within our Culture of Christianity who use verses out of context -- the same way I just did to support abortion -- to support their views against abortion. The condemning and the supporting comes not from the Scriptures but from average Christians who take the easy way out, accepting one or two verses of the Bible as proof that their leaders are speaking the gospel truth. The condemning and supporting comes not from God but from those who do not take the time to read the Bible, in its own context, and decide for themselves the meanings therein.

Welcome Disarray, Thanks for the link

Jeremy Pallant · 10-17-2004, 03:45 PM

I must admit to being curious. How does Num. 5:21: "make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell" lead to a translation of "bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth"? And the conclusion that it is directions on abortion and sterilization?

Toto · 10-17-2004, 07:33 PM

This this prior thread on exactly that issue:

Numbers 5:12-31 and abortion

and here:

Does the Bible say fetuses are living things?

10-15-2004, 05:06 PM	#1
Disarray Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Minnesota, US Posts: 269	Is the Bible actually Pro-Choice? Is the bible actually pro-choice? This article: http://www.elroy.net/ehr/abortion.html ...makes a very effective argument that the bible is not pro-life. (I found this article from this site some time ago) My knowledge of the original texts of the bible is small, so I cannot make a good judgement on the author's arguments about the Hebrew. My concern regarding this, is the fact that many people will be voting for Bush in the upcoming election solely for his pro-life stance. My happy rainbow dream, would be to convince the Catholic church that abortion is not against God's law before this election, and have them proclaim that a vote for Kerry is not a sin. Of course that won't happen, but for the many Christians in this country who do not believe the proclamations of the Church are the direct word and law of God, I think there exists the chance of them becoming aware of this before the election, possibly creating a significant difference in it. Does anyone have any input on whether the bible can be considered pro-choice; and whether there is a way to make an impact on the contemporary perspective of Christians in our society regarding abortion before the election? Since this is my first post, I suppose a little introduction is appropriate: I'd like to say that I have a lot of respect for this site. I've been lurking around for awhile, and will likely post here semi-regularly. I think this site sets a good standard for arguments on the internet, and I intend to do my small part to keep it that way when I do post here.

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10-15-2004, 05:33 PM	#2
Hyndis Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 6,588	First off, welcome to the boards. And may the IPU have mercy on your soul. :devil3: And secondly, I think you're in the wrong forum. If you want to debate the ethics of abortion, we've got plenty of threads here for that. But if you want to debate the Bible's position on abortion, then it would probably be off to BC&H, since those folks are much more knowledgable about picking apart ancient texts. So, off to BC&H. If things get leaning more towards the ethics of it, then the mods over there will boot it back to here.

10-15-2004, 05:58 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hi Disarray - welcome to the boards, which are about to go down for maintenance this weekend. I think it is fair to say that people in Biblical times did not believe that life begins at conception, and this is reflected in several passages of the Bible. Early Christians were opposed to abortions, which were fairly messy and dangerous in the first century. There are some old discussions on this topic, which you can find using the search engine, or which I will find later.

10-15-2004, 06:29 PM	#5
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	In a society where women are treated like cattle, the causation of a miscarriage might be acceptable, if distasteful. Tell us, do you equate women with livestock?

10-15-2004, 06:52 PM	#6
Disarray Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Minnesota, US Posts: 269	Hyndis, thanks for the welcome , and redirecting my post. Toto, thank you also, board goes down now?!!??!!? :banghead: Casper, no. I'm not speaking of my opinion on the morality of abortion. I'm looking for an understanding of the bible's position, and whether people who hate bush but will still vote for him because Kerry is pro-choice, will reconsider with a more detailed understanding of the bible. Thank you for the response. And I'm looking into that now Andrew.

10-17-2004, 07:23 AM	#7
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	I wonder why the linked article didn't mention the instructions in Num. 5. The reason might be that the KJV uses a rather veiled language for the Hebrew words in Num. 5:21: "make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell". The Revised English Bible takes a clear stance : "bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth". A footnote in the Swedish Bibel 2000 mentions interpretations like miscarriage, sterility and painful illnesses. In spite of the different nuances used, I read the chapter as a manual for abortion plus sterilization.

10-17-2004, 03:45 PM	#9
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	I must admit to being curious. How does Num. 5:21: "make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell" lead to a translation of "bringing upon you miscarriage and untimely birth"? And the conclusion that it is directions on abortion and sterilization?

10-17-2004, 07:33 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This this prior thread on exactly that issue: Numbers 5:12-31 and abortion and here: Does the Bible say fetuses are living things?

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