StarCross

Codec,

The key to unlocking this "mystery" of yours is found in the following passages:

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' (Matthew 10:5-7)

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

Jesus is telling you here that he was NOT sent to the gentiles but to the house of Israel because the law applies to Israel alone. This actually sqaures quite nicely with Paul's statements in Romans:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, (Romans 2:14)

Gentiles were without the law from the beginning so the levitical ordinances never applied to them. Anyone saved by God's grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9) in Paul's gospel (Romans 2:16, 16:25: see 1 Cor 15:1-4) is under grace and not law (Romans 6:14). Israel remains under the law for all time.

Thanks
StarCross.

Codec

I have to say I find noahs interpretation more reasonable. It seems to me that Paul struggled to find converts to Judaism, and so made a more palatable version by arguing his way around some of the more awkward elements (circumcision being a major one).

I know a lot of Christians believe in the 10 commandments - although which set is an interesting issue, and are also happy to quote some of the levitical laws on occasion. They are equally happy to ignore others though, so it all seems a little too convenient. A case of the best of having ones cake (or pork!) and eating it.

Benni72

Well, there is the alleged resolution of the Jerusalem Apostolic Council in Acts 15, 28-29:

(KJV)

noah

You got that right Codec. "Struggled" is putting it nicely. Paul flat out lied in order to push his doctrine of disregarding the law and putting your faith in a human blood sacrifice.

Take his little deception in Romans 10:8 in which he changes the words of Dt.30:14 to match his doctrine of faith and ignoring the law. He omits the words "that thou mayest do it" , meaning obey the law, and in its place puts "that is, the word of faith which we preach."

And that's not the only place where Paul manipulates and distorts scripture to suit his purposes.

Regards,

noah

Nice try StarCross but the truth of the matter is that if you want to follow Paul then you are not a Christian, you are a Paulinian. You need to get your terminology straight. It's either Paul or Jesus. Paul or the law and Jesus.

Jesus said follow the law, obey the law. And, as I said, he does so in the Book of Revelation which means Paul is pretty much an island unto himself. Mind you there are numerous passages where Paul advocates obeying the law.

Moreover your point that JC is for the Jews and Paul is for the gentiles is flat wrong. JC said his word was meant for all people, not just the Jews. Take a look at JC's own words:

Matthew 28:29
What did JC teach and command? What was "all things"? You guessed it. That everyone obey the Law. God's law. His Father's law. The law he and his Father commanded everyone to obey forever.
Did I hear any mention of Paul in any of that? Remember that JC forbid teaching people to disregard the law. Sound like Paul? Of course it does.

and Mark 16:15
What was the Gospel that all th eworld was to be taught? It was JC teaching strict observance of the Law his Father laid down in the so-called OT.

Then there's Luke 2:32
Hmm. "Lighten the Gentiles". Sounds to me like the words of old JC are meant for everyone, not just the Jews.

Actually if you look at it in a graphical way you will see Paul isolated and surrounded by the rest of the Bible which teaches observance of God's law. Even there as I said Paul is in a bit of a pickle since he also advocates the law in some places.

Sheshbazzar

Those who have died are exempt from The Law. Baptism is accounted as dieing.

punk77

A really well argued post. I am going to put it in my 'favourites' and try and memorise most/all of it. Thanks.

Sheshbazzar

The Law IS still in full force against ALL of the living, who are yet engaged in the satisfaction of the lusts of the flesh.

But as many as have believed His words, and been immersed into His name, are accounted as being dead under the Law, wherefore the letter of The Law no longer has dominion.

The man that says that he keeps The Law of YHWH, and observes ALL of His Statutes and Ordinances, to DO them, makes himself to be a liar, whom deceiving himself, also deceives whosoever receives his testimony.

No man under The Law, is justified by the hundreds of Laws, Statutes and Judgments that are observed, but all are condemned under The Law, by a single solitary commandment that is neglected, altered, perverted or voided for convenience sake.

With Law there is condemnation and penalties upon its trespassers, but justice and mercy are within the power and the province of Judgment;

Wherefore, if The Law condemns, it is The Judge alone, who is empowered to show His mercy and His leniency upon the trespassers.

As many as are in The Messiah our Passover, are exempted from the penalties of The Law regarding "touch not, taste not, handle not," those matters being unlawful to them under The Law, become exempt and therefore lawful, unto them whom through faith, submit themselves to accepting His just and compassionate offer of His exemption, Our Passover.

noah

Sophistries and wishful thinking. You're using Paul to justify Paul. You ought to know better. The key is whether you believe in Paul or whether you believe in JC and his Father Yahweh. It's a choice. It's a dilemma. And it won't go away if you keep repeating Paul.
I refer you to this post, this post and this post.

Who is this Paul guy? Does Paul have the power to make declarations like this (Romans 7) which contradict a law he never made and a law made by a deity to whom he is subservient? There is no mention of any of this in any part of the OT where God lays down his laws. Nor is there any mention of any of this by JC who stated emphatically that you must obey the law, the law of his Father and not, repeat not, teach any one else to break it.
Did JC say this anywhere? Did Yahweh? Mathew 5:17-19 Revelation 22:14 Revelation 14:12?

BTW, is Paul a member of the Trinity? Did I miss that? Did Yahweh mention Paul anywhere? What is Paul's authority?


With this statement here I guess you are saying no one can observe the commandments, that they are are a burden, are impossible to obey:
Problem here is you're wrong. Have you heard of Elizabeth and Zacharias? They obeyed all of the commandments:
Would they be lying if they said they obeyed all the commandments? Are the writers of the Gospel lying here?
Please note here too, of course, that again we learn how righteousness is achieved through the law.

Remember Revelations 22:14 ? JC seems to think people can obey the commandments. Is he lying in some way?
Note again we learn that salvation is achieved through keeping the commandments.

When JC told everyone that the Pharisees, devout followers of the law, sit on Moses' seat and to do what they do and do what they say, was he cruelly setting up an impossible task for people knowing full well that no one could keep the commandments?

How about when that rich guy asks JC what he must do in order to be saved and JC says "If though wilt enter into life, keep the commandments....", was JC just playing some sick joke?

Look at 1st. John 5:3. It shows that God''s commandments are not impossible to obey. In fact, we demonstrate our love of God by keeping his commandments. They are our conduit to him:
As I said before, it's a choice between Paul and JC. You either take the owrd of JC and his Father or you go with Paul. It all depends on who you want to call "God".

Joan of Bark

Well argued, Noah.