Clivedurdle

Link to Fabrication of the Christ Myth has a review that comments sheep were not common in Judea, and the area was not a wilderness. This is used as an example that the gospels are inaccurate historical novels.

As the gospels and new testament use sheep and lambs and shepherds as central repeated themes, what is the reality?

How important a part of the economy were sheep?

Overcomer

Judea not a wilderness area, eh? And no sheep there either? That disagrees with this statement from Wikipedia:

Judea is a mountainous and arid region, much of which is considered to be a desert. It varies greatly in height, rising to an altitude of 1,020m (3,346 ft) in the south at Mount Hebron, 19 miles (30 km) southwest of Jerusalem, and descending to as much as 400m (1,312ft) below sea level in the east of the region. Major cities in the region include Jerusalem, Beitar Illit, Bethlehem, Efrat, Gush Etzion, Jericho and Hebron.

Geographers divide Judea into several distinct regions: the Hebron hills, the Jerusalem saddle, the Bethel hills and the Judean desert east of Jerusalem, which descends in a series of steps to the Dead Sea. In ancient times the hills were forested and the Bible records agriculture and sheep farming being practiced in the area. Animals are still grazed today, with shepherds moving them between the low ground to the hilltops (which have more rainfall) as summer approaches. The region dried out over the centuries and much of the ancient tree cover has since disappeared.

Now you're probably going to say that Wikipedia is wrong about the sheep because they mention the Bible as their source of information and athiests don't accept the Bible as a valid historical document.

However, historians and archaeologists, be they Christian or non-Christian, do! Time and time again, the reliability of the Bible has been proven by archaeological finds.

Take David who tended his -- you guessed it!!! His sheep! Where? On the hills of Judea! Athiests used David
in their attempts to discredit the Bible, insisting that there was no information outside the Bible about him. Therefore, he didn't exist. Then, 1993, archaeologists discovered a stone tablet which spoke of him. In fact, it spoke of the House of David, thereby confirming a long line of Davidic kings. You may read about that here:

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn005/gn005f02.htm

Here is more information attesting to the fact that David and others mentionedin the Bible were real people:

As recently as a decade ago, some argued that Israel’s most famous king, David, was but a myth. The record of the Bible wasn’t good enough, they insisted; proof of his existence must be found elsewhere.

In 1993 that proof emerged when Israeli archaeologists discovered an inscription that referred to the royal dynasty David founded. Recorded on a monument some 150 years after David’s death, the inscription commemorates the victory of the king of Damascus over the forces of Israel and their king, who was "of the house (dynasty) of David" (see "An Ancient Inscription Proves David Was Real," page 5).

Over the years dozens of artifacts and inscriptions bearing the names of individuals mentioned in the Bible have been uncovered. In 1982 a cache of 51 ancient baked-clay seals that were used to bind papyrus or parchment scrolls was uncovered in a Jerusalem excavation. One bore the impression of the seal of "Gemaryahu (Gemariah) the son of Shaphan." This same "Gemariah, the son of Shaphan," was a scribe in the court of Judah’s king Jehoiakim as mentioned in Jeremiah 36:10-12,25-26.

In 1975 another hoard of seals emerged, apparently uncovered in unauthorized digging in Jerusalem. One bore the name of Ishmael, the man who assassinated Gedaliah, the governor appointed by the Babylonians after they destroyed Jerusalem (2Kings 25:25).

Even more surprising, another seal bore the name "Berekhyahu (Baruch) son of Neriyahu (Neriah) the scribe." This man was none other than "Baruch the scribe," trusted friend, confidant and scribe of Jeremiah the prophet (Jeremiah 36:4-32; 43:1-6; 45:1-2).

As if that were not astounding enough, another seal in a private collection in England was found to bear not only Baruch’s name but a fingerprint along one edge--apparently Baruch’s own fingerprint from when he impressed his seal into the soft clay some 2,600 years ago!

These are only a few of the finds that prove specific people mentioned in the Bible--many only in an incidental way--were indeed real and lived at the exact time and in the exact location in which the Bible places them.

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn039/bible.html


Now if the information in the Bible about David being king is correct, should we not also seriously consider the fact that the record of him being a shepherd was also correct?

Sheep are mentioned 500 times in the Bible, in the Old Testament where they speak literally of sheep and in the New Testament where the term is used metaphorically.

There were both wild sheep and domesticated sheep throughout the Ancient Middle East. They provided most of the necessities of life -- milk, meat, hides and wool. The teeth of domestic sheep allow them to eat down to the roots of plants and they can live off the stubble left over from barley and wheat harvests or areas where cattle have already grazed. So you can see from this that they were of tremendous importance in the culture.

You will find the same kind of domestic sheep in Palestine (part of what used to be called Judea) today that you did back in Bible times -- broad-tailed sheep with flat tails that weight as much as 15 pounds.

I hope that helps to answer your question, Clive. And I hope it shows you that your source of information is questionable at best!

Rick Sumner

Sheep bones are found at Qumran, and many of the scrolls are written on sheepskin.

Even beyond that, I see no reason to view them as "not common in Judea," given the presence of their remains in a large number of sites.

http://archaeology.asu.edu/Jordan/MARS2001.html

Regards,
Rick Sumner

vsop44

Hope this link answers your question.
A while back I bought a property that had to be cleared of weeds and shrubs and told my mother that maybe I should buy a couple of goats to do the job ; My mother answered buy some sheep instead for goats are pretty selective in what they eat , but sheep will eat anything including roots . This is possibly the reason that sheep were not welcome in the arid climate of the middle east , the way they eat everything to the root making it harder for the vegetation to grow back .

http://www.epm.org/articles/shepherd.html
Egyptians considered sheep worthless for food and sacrifice. Pharaoh's clean-shaved court looked down on the rugged shepherd sons of Jacob. Joseph matter-of-factly informed his brothers, "Every shepherd is detestable to the Egyptians" (Genesis 46:34 NIV).

Clivedurdle

No!

Sheep in Britain have had major detrimental effects, from the Monasteries to the Highlands in clearing peasants off the land. The process seems to be cut the trees down then let loose the sheep. There are serious issues in Australia.

If they do eat everything, they will have major ecological effects and could cause deserts.

The views of the Egyptians reported in Genesis - isn't Genesis now agreed to be an eighth century BCE document - may be reporting something correctly - Egyptians in a desert country whose only source of fertile land is the flooding of the Nile may have been very negative about semi nomadic pastoral desert creators!

The Terrible sweal

I have a feeling that sheep are over-represented in our popular idea of the era and goats are under-represented.

Chris Weimer

Indeed, husbandry and shepherding livestock are the major causes for the continuing growth of the Sahara desert.

TedM

Sheep were apparantly important to the culture.


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Search Results
"sheep" was found 171 times in 155 verses in the Old Testament.

Genesis 4:2 - And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 12:16 - And for her sake he dealt well with Abram; and he had sheep, oxen, he-asses, menservants, maidservants, she-asses, and camels.

Genesis 20:14 - Then Abim'elech took sheep and oxen, and male and female slaves, and gave them to Abraham, and restored Sarah his wife to him.

Genesis 21:27 - So Abraham took sheep and oxen and gave them to Abim'elech, and the two men made a covenant.

Genesis 29:2 - As he looked, he saw a well in the field, and lo, three flocks of sheep lying beside it; for out of that well the flocks were watered. The stone on the well's mouth was large,

Genesis 29:3 - and when all the flocks were gathered there, the shepherds would roll the stone from the mouth of the well, and water the sheep, and put the stone back in its place upon the mouth of the well.

Genesis 29:6 - He said to them, "Is it well with him?" They said, "It is well; and see, Rachel his daughter is coming with the sheep!"

Genesis 29:7 - He said, "Behold, it is still high day, it is not time for the animals to be gathered together; water the sheep, and go, pasture them."

Genesis 29:8 - But they said, "We cannot until all the flocks are gathered together, and the stone is rolled from the mouth of the well; then we water the sheep."

Genesis 29:9 - While he was still speaking with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep; for she kept them.



ted

premjan

Don't sheep and goats crop grass so closely that it will not grow back (despite exhibiting stem growth instead of shoot growth) ?

Toto

More specifically, the Amazon review quotes The Fabrication of the Christ Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk) as contrasting the description of Galilee in the gospels with that in Josephus, who was stationed there a generation later:

I don't have my copy here, but I will try to check for Leidner's references later.

The one reference cited in the review (besides Josephus) is to the Rev. Robert Taylor - a 19th century Deist who convinced himself of the nonexistence of Jesus through his own study. His work Diegesis is available on Amazon or here online. It appears to be fascinating, probably dated on some issues.