John A. Broussard

Since Christian thought seems to place great emphasis upon the OT's Messianic prophesy, could someone point out in the OT where it says that the Messiah would be:

1. Resurrected from the dead.

2. Ascend into heven.

3. Be the son of god.

I believe these are fundamental beliefs of most Christian sects, so I wonder where the prophesies include these elements.

Thanks much for doing the research for me.

Thomas II

Chili started it...

1.Resurrected from the dead
2.Ascend into heaven
Our consciousness going from an obscured place to an unobscured one.

3.Be the son of God...No more relating to an imaginary reflexion...

John A. Broussard

Good imitation.

No quite the usual general confusion, but close.

CJD

Neither the early Christians, nor Jesus himself, considered his life (and death and resurrection) to be a black-and-white, one-for-one fulfillment of a few distant and obscure prophetic utterances. Think about how absurd that sounds. We have this guy walking around, thinking, "Well, now I've got to go here and do this, in order to 'fulfill' this …." No, that's not how it worked, nor is it how Jesus' life, etc., was viewed by his early followers (Paul included).

When some aspect or another of Jesus' entire life and death and resurrection is said to have been done "so that the scriptures would be fulfilled," the idea is not that this or that particular instance complies exactly with some ancient word spoken by a prophet; the idea is that the entirety of the scriptures, the story or narrative of Israel, has been summed up, explained, reached its goal, in Messiah Jesus. This bears upon our previous discussion, John, where I whined about how, generally speaking, the prophetic literature and the NT authors' use of it is misunderstood both by apologists and by a great many skeptics (who are naturally all-too-willing to point out the inconsistencies).

Given this preface, there is no need to search the TNK for allusions to the three points you raised above. We can, however, say a few things:

1. First-century Jews (the Saducees apparently being in the minority) did seem to expect a future resurrection of the dead. This resurrection, after the Davidic king would inaugurate YHWH's kingdom on earth, is the kingdom-life promised to the people of God. It would include the entire world (geographically and humanly speaking).

2. I doubt anyone expected the very person they believed to be the Messiah to leave them, yet the promise was that in the last days the Spirit of YHWH would be poured out upon his people. The early Christians' saw Jesus' leaving as somehow a part of (enabling?) that promise.

3. Most Jews expected a fully human war hero, not a theanthropos. Incidentally, the early Christians didn't conceive of Jesus as the son of God because of any distant, obscure prophecy, but because Jesus did what YHWH always said he would do. Thus, their will and purpose was the same, and God proved it when he resurrected him from the dead; therefore, this guy Jesus was not a regular Joe.

The amount of actual research it would take for most folks to get on track when it comes to reading the prophetic literature and the NT in its context is daunting, and I don't blame you for not plunging in.

CJD

Thomas II

We can always find some ulterior meaning to just about anything...

Chili

4 Be fully God in "my Lord and my God" when all faith and doubt is removed
5 The Assumption of Mary as the body of Christ
6 The Coronation of Mary
7 Celebration of Eucharist.

Thomas II

Chili,
please explain 4,5,6,7 with their actual meaning...Thanks.:wave:

John A. Broussard

I think you covered the points in the OP quite well.

Essentially, these vital aspects of Christianity are not contained in the OT's description of the coming Messiah.

Why Christian doctrine added these elements is what is really puzzling.

Chili

I really am not an authority on this but I'll give you my opinion. You may say that it is Catholic based but that is only because we have the metaphors in place. Buddhism will have their own version, no doubt.

4. In the Gospels ascension did not take place until all doubt was removed which simultaneously removed the cloak of faith from Peter who was the twin of doubt. This is religion, you might say, but it is true that if the Thousand Year Reign is ours it is foolish not to go fishing in those waters and see what we can bring to the surface (ie. speak from both "the old and the new"). The release of the captives when Jesus went into this netherworld speaks on the liberation of his own tradition = what exactly made that fig tree produce him.

5. Taking charge of your own destiny as the fruit of the vine. This is where the child becomes fully man 'in' the woman who once was taken from him. That they become one was foreshadowed in Gen.2. Remember here that the woman was taken from man which created a division in our mind that caused the alienation from our true identity. This would be why Joseph was betrothed to Mary and here becomes one with her (while in real life he may have been married and had 10 kids with his wife). It can be said that the child married its mother here who in Rev. 21 is called the "bride of the lamb."

6. We place our riches next to hers = subservient to Rome. It kind of means that life belongs to the mythology and our eternal life is a gift of Rome. This would not be a physical 'home' but more in the sense of understanding who we are and so on. I like Shakespeare use of the names Volumnia and Virgilia to distinguish between Alma Mater and Mary theotokos who comes down from heaven to lift us up. James the Mille has similar names so we find these often in literature.

7. It does not mean evangelizing or anything towards unification but to suspend all judgment and just accept people for who they are.

Thomas II

Ok...This is my opinion...

7.Eucharist: bread (the intellect), blood (the cosmic vitality,the Life). It is about their unification. It is about becoming the Universal man. It's about "I and the Father are One".

6. Mary...Mary is about "Not my will but thy will be done"...
"My will" would be "the will of Ego"
"Thy will" is the Universal will of Life.

But...surrendering to the will of the Church IS NOT surrendering to the will of Life...
LIFE was there long before there was a Roman Catholic Church institution, and it will be there long after the institution of the Roman Catholic Church is no more...
The Church is too attached to itself, to its ego, just like if it were an individual...and as an institution it can not ascend unless it sheds that ego...When it becomes as "Mary", THEN,and only then, can they and the Father be One..."Were I'm going you can not go...(yet)"