Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Seeker2000 · 06-03-2005, 07:48 AM

Hi,

I was reading about the darkness that supposedly occured when Jesus was crucified. This is allegedly mentioned by a non-Christian historian named Thallus, but his writings are lost, so we can't tell exactly what he wrote and when he wrote it.

First off, is there some information on when Thallus was born? I found a website which said around 50 AD, but that didn't look that reliable. Also some other websites said he wrote his history at that time.

When looking for other mentions of this I found the following:

Quote:

it is asserted by Suidas, that Dionysius the Areopagite, then an Heathen, saw it in Egypt; and said,

``either the, divine being suffers, or suffers with him that suffers, or the frame of the world is dissolving.''

From: http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/ge...=027&verse=045

Does anyone know more about this quote? What is the context, when was it written and is it really a non-Christian reference of the darkness?

On that site it also says "The Roman archives are appealed unto for the truth of it by Tertullian". I found another site which mentions this:

Quote:

Tertullian’s Apology, chapter 21, concerning the crucifixion, also makes no note of the addition:

“In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves [the Jews] have the account of the world-portent still in your archives. Then, when His body was taken down from the cross and placed in a sepulchre, the Jews in their eager watchfulness surrounded it with a large military guard�? (In: Roberts and Donaldson’s Ante-Nicene Fathers, III).

From: http://www.geocities.com/fdocc3/mc.htm

What archives is he referring to here? Can this be understood to mean that back then it was a known fact that this darkness really happened?

Another issue that is talked about on that link is Matthew 27:52b and 53:

Quote:

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many�? (Mt. 27:51-53).

They claim that the red part is probably a forgery (maybe 'later addition' would be a more neutral term for it). What do you think about this? What is the general opinion of scholars on it? Is there anybody else who has suggested this?

Amaleq13 · 06-03-2005, 08:17 AM

I think you will find this article by Richard Carrier interesting.

Seeker2000 · 06-03-2005, 10:10 AM

Thanks, but I already read that article. It's interesting, but it doesn't answer the questions I posted.

Ok, maybe the birthdate of Thallus is simply unknown, but I thought maybe someone else has additional information about it.

Regarding the assertion by Suidas, that Dionysius the Areopagite, then an Heathen, saw the darkness in Egypt and said ``either the, divine being suffers, or suffers with him that suffers, or the frame of the world is dissolving.'' I found something on the net.

First, I found out that Suidas refers to a 10th century Byzantine Greek historical encyclopedia of the ancient Mediterranean world. There's also an online edition of it and here's the whole quote from the section about Dionysius the Areopagite:

Quote:

A “Praise to the Great Dionysius�? has been written by Michael Syncellus of Jerusalem, where he says:[31]
“What we have received through his written or unwritten teaching, we come to explain it to you all, who are willing to listen. A narration has come down to us, transmitted from father to son, that the above mentioned great Dionysius, at the time of the saving Passion, when at noon the Sun was obscured, astonished at the extraordinary phenomenon and going beyond the [limits of] human understanding, said “An unknown God is suffering, for the sake of whom all things are being darkened and shaken�?.[32] And immediately, right at the moment this universal miracle was produced, he had conjectured [the reasons] and was observing by himself, waiting for the meaning that would be announced by that. He himself mentions that most frightening solar eclipse in the letter to the bishop Polycarp. For Apollophanes, a philosopher, follower of the Greek religion, was railing and attacking this thrice-fortunate man, as, albeit he was his beloved companion, of his same origin, he felt disgusted for the religion of his country and chose the one of the Christians, embraced a faith and fought for it most bravely, and used Greek writings against the Greeks. In the attempt of refuting that attack and anger, or rather of giving it as a suggestion to Polycarp, since the mockery was also directed against him by the fellow, Dionysius says the following words: “But you say that Apollophanes the Sophist is railing at me, and calls me parricide�? etc.

So this special quote seems to be a narration, transmitted from father to son. According to Google Michael Syncellus lived in the 8th or 9th century, so I don't know how reliable such a narration is.

But there is more written in the Suidas/Suda about Dionysius' experience of the solar eclipse. His letter 7 to Polycarp is quoted (Michael Syncellus also referred to it in the quote from his text), which describes it with many details. Read for yourself at the Suda link I mentioned. However, his works seem to be written by a different person from at least the 5th century, who falsely attributed them to Dionysius. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-...the_Areopagite

The commentary available at Suda online says about this:

Quote:

According to Acts 17.32-34 Dionysius, born at Athens in the first century A.D., of aristocratic origin, was one one of the judges of the Areopagus. He is said to have been converted to the Christian faith by Paul’s preaching, along with a woman called Damaris and others. Further evidence about his person is wanting. Down the ages a great number of theological writings were attributed to a “Dionysius of Athens�?, generally identified with the Areopagite. Moreover, Dionysius was popularly identified with the martyr of Gaul, first bishop of Paris; many analogies between the worship of the two saints are to be remarked in Western Europe. Other theories identify him with the Egyptian Dionysius of Rhinocolura, or with Dionysius of Gaza. Anyway, the first time the works of Dionysius are quoted is by sixth-century writers. That, along with his advanced trinitarian and christological doctrine which cannot be contemporary with the Apostles, and shows many common points to neo-Platonic doctrines, lead us to place Dionysius’ life at least at the end of the fifth century. According to this hypothesis, the letter corpus and the passage quoted by the Suda could hardly be ascribed to the same author as the other books.

Take a look at the last sentence, which I marked with bold letters. According to the commentator the letters cannot be from the same person who faked the other works of Dionysius. Does anyone understand how he arrives at this conclusion? Does he mean that they could be real? If the Suda encyclopedia is from the 10th century and the faked writings are from the 5th/6th century, why can't the letters also be from that period and author?

Seeker2000 · 06-03-2005, 10:48 AM

Well, I just found out that even the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't regard the letters as authentic:

Quote:

And it is plainly for the purpose of deceiving that he tells of having observed the solar eclipse at Christ's Crucifixion (Ep., vii, 2; P.G., III, 1081 A) [...] The former of these accounts is based on Matt., xxvii, 45, and Mark, xv,33; [...] For the same purpose, i.e., to create the impression that the author belonged to the times of the Apostles and that he was identical with the Areopagite mentioned in the Acts, different persons, such as John the Evangelist, Paul, Timothy, Titus, Justus, and Carpus, with whom he is supposed to be on intimate terms, figure in his writings.

So apart from that there's the quote from the first posting, which seems to be a narration Michael Syncellus reported about.

There are also the other points left:
-Does anyone have additional information about Thallus?
-What archives was Tertullian referring to in his "Apology"?
-What about the supposed 'later addition'/'forgery' in Matthew 27:52b & 53?

Seeker2000 · 06-06-2005, 11:09 AM

No one?

I had thought that at least some experts who know details about Tertullian would be on this forum...

He wrote "You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives" and I think he's really talking about the Roman archives here, although some websites claim he's referring to Jewish or Pagan archives. But I think his "Apology" is addressed at the Romans, if I'm correct, and he also talks about "the Jews" (and doesn't simply say "you") in the next sentence, which would also be in favor of the assertion that he isn't talking to the Jews.

So, what are those archives? Were there some official Roman archives at some place to which he is referring? What can we conclude from that about the darkness?

Maybe he's just talking about the accounts of Thallus or Phlegon, who mentioned a solar eclipse in their histories, and not of some new account. Then his writings wouldn't give us any new information concerning the darkness. Well, I don't know what he really meant when he said it's "still in your archives".

Steven Avery · 06-06-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

He wrote "You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives" and I think he's really talking about the Roman archives here, although some websites claim he's referring to Jewish or Pagan archives. But I think his "Apology" is addressed at the Romans, if I'm correct, and he also talks about "the Jews" (and doesn't simply say "you") in the next sentence, which would also be in favor of the assertion that he isn't talking to the Jews. So, what are those archives? Were there some official Roman archives at some place to which he is referring? What can we conclude from that about the darkness? ... Well, I don't know what he really meant when he said it's "still in your archives".

Are there a couple of cases where the early church writers refers to Jewish and Roman archives, as in the genealogy discussion ? I'm not sure, just wondering if anyone knows offhand the sum of such archives references. Isn't there a reference about a report by Pilate (not talking here about the Archko volumes, but perhaps a Justin Martyr reference ?). And also references to Jewish genealogy records being destroyed, although that would have been in A.D. 70, too early to then claim that they are in the archives. If I remember right, Josephus has a quote on this. However, all my background on this is sketchy.

And dunno if all such references are collated anyplace for examination. Would make a nice web page, and go along closely with your earthquake/Thallus/Tertullian and related inquires.

In addition we have today in the Jewish Talmudic writings the supernatural events 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, which fit along very well with a earthquake (divinely inspired, s'il vous plait). Perhaps Tertullian is referring to those types of records as well, which could have included a lot more detail at the time, such as darkness :-) That is, if we leave Tertullian's usage archives open to Jewish and/or Roman rather than just Roman.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Seeker2000 · 06-06-2005, 01:16 PM

Hi,

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

In addition we have today in the Jewish Talmudic writings the supernatural events 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, which fit along very well with a earthquake (divinely inspired, s'il vous plait).

What kind of events have been reported there? Are these writings available online?

Steven Carr · 06-06-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

He wrote "You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives" and I think he's really talking about the Roman archives here, although some websites claim he's referring to Jewish or Pagan archives. But I think his "Apology" is addressed at the Romans, if I'm correct, and he also talks about "the Jews" (and doesn't simply say "you") in the next sentence, which would also be in favor of the assertion that he isn't talking to the Jews.

So, what are those archives? Were there some official Roman archives at some place to which he is referring? What can we conclude from that about the darkness?

I don't know what archives either.

In 69 AD, the Library in Rome was burned to the ground, as Tacitus records.

Some archives were restored afterwards, but not much. I think Richard Carrier has something somewhere about what was chosen to be restored.

Tertullian (in the same work, if I remember rightly) also claims that there was an archive report of Jesus being born under a census of Sentius Saturninus,
and Tertullian also puts the birth in the 41st year of Augustus (ie 2 BC) , and 28 years after the death of Cleopatra (ie 2 BC)

Sentius Saturninus was not procurator in 2 BC

Conclusion - Tertullian had never seen any archives, and was bluffing.

S.C.Carlson · 06-06-2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seeker2000

-Does anyone have additional information about Thallus?

Thallus's work is lost, except for fragments, so it's really hard to make much of anything of that reference.

I suspect that Thallus merely refered to the solar eclipse in the fall of 29, which someone else quoting Thallus then misidentified with Matthew's darkness at the crucifixion.

Steven Avery · 06-07-2005, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Tertullian (in the same work, if I remember rightly) also claims that there was an archive report of Jesus being born under a census of Sentius Saturninus, and Tertullian also puts the birth in the 41st year of Augustus (ie 2 BC), and 28 years after the death of Cleopatra (ie 2 BC) Sentius Saturninus was not procurator in 2 BC Conclusion - Tertullian had never seen any archives, and was bluffing.

One of many possible conclusions, (except that Tertullian did not say he based this on archives :-)

There can be ambiguities and problems in the historical chronologies, e.g. Josephus is faulted by some for getting dates wrong.

Anyway, for those who simply wish to know the Tertullian statements, he simply refers to historical proof...

Here is the Tertullian quote and one commentary.
http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-31.htm#19_10
But there is historical proof that at this very time a census had been taken in Judaea by Sentius Saturninus, (724) which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ.

"724 "C. Sentius Saturninus, a consular, held this census of the whole empire as principal augur, because Augustus determined to impart the sanction of religion to his institution. The agent through whom Saturninus carried out the census in Judaea was the governor Cyrenius, according to Luke, chap. ii."-Fr. Junius. Tertullian mentions Sentius Saturninus again in De Pallio, i. Tertullian's statement in the text has weighed with Sanclemente and others, who suppose that Saturninus was governor of Judaea at the time of our Lord's birth, which they place in 747 A.u.C. "It is evident, however," says Wieseler, "that this argument is far from decisive; for the New Testament itself supplies far better aids for determining this question than the discordant ecclesiastical traditions-different fathers giving different dates, which might be appealed to with equal justice; while Tertullian is even inconsistent with himself, since in his treatise Adv. Jud. viii., he gives 751 A. U. C. as the year of our Lord's birth" (Wieseler's Chronological Synopsis by Venebles, p. 99, note 2). This Sentius Saturninus filled the office of governor of Syria, 744-748. For the elaborate argument of Aug. W. Zumpt, by which he defends St. Luke's chronology, and goes far to prove that Publius Sulpicius Quirinus (or "Cyrenius") was actually the governor of Syria at the time of the Lord's birth, the reader may be referred to a careful abridgment by the translator of Wieseler's work, pp. 129-135."

The views of Ernest Martin and William Ramsey are given by Glenn Miller at .
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/quirinius.html

Another view.
http://www.struggler.org/birth3.htm

An interesting study realm.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

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06-03-2005, 08:17 AM	#2
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	I think you will find this article by Richard Carrier interesting.

06-06-2005, 11:09 AM	#5
Seeker2000 Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 393	No one? I had thought that at least some experts who know details about Tertullian would be on this forum... He wrote "You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives" and I think he's really talking about the Roman archives here, although some websites claim he's referring to Jewish or Pagan archives. But I think his "Apology" is addressed at the Romans, if I'm correct, and he also talks about "the Jews" (and doesn't simply say "you") in the next sentence, which would also be in favor of the assertion that he isn't talking to the Jews. So, what are those archives? Were there some official Roman archives at some place to which he is referring? What can we conclude from that about the darkness? Maybe he's just talking about the accounts of Thallus or Phlegon, who mentioned a solar eclipse in their histories, and not of some new account. Then his writings wouldn't give us any new information concerning the darkness. Well, I don't know what he really meant when he said it's "still in your archives".

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