Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spanky · 07-10-2012, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Once a myth always a myth...

faith of a fundamentalist

No, just the understanding of someone who has spent countless hours wrestling with the facts presented us.

aa5874 · 07-10-2012, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

aa5874 I doubt there is anything earlier than the 11th century, but I could be wrong.

It is true that any literate christian zealot could have forged the TF into Josephus and transplanted the results into Eusebius after Eusebius kicked the bucket, but there are other researchers out there (such as Ken Olsen) who take the time to argue that it was Big E. who piously forged the TF. I think that this explanation fits the commissioning and existence of a 4th century forgery mill quite adequately.

There are literally billions of people who make claims WITHOUT any evidence. Once you understand that the date of authorship of apologetic sources are questionable then you should realize that "Church History" may NOT have been written in the 4th century.

A proper analysis of Apologetic sources will show that many writings are forgeries and were NOT written at the time suugested by the FAKE authors.

The Entire Canon was composed by FAKE authors, the supposed disciples, family, and Paul. It would appear that Fake authorship is STANDARD in Apologetic sources.

It is highly unlikely that ONLY the Canon contains FAKE authors.

show_no_mercy · 07-10-2012, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Quote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

The problem is that this still doesn't fit the flow of where it presently is in Josephus.

Ant. 18.3.1 is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look how he is fucking things up for the Jews"

Then we have Ant. 18.3.2 which is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look at another way he is fucking things up for the Jews"

Then we have Ant. 18.3.4 which is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look at yet another way he is fucking things up for the Jews".

Ant. 18.3.3 is an anomaly in the general flow of the beginning of Ant. 18.3. Your current reconstruction doesn't fit the theme of "Pilate is fucking things up for the Jews". It's still just Christian propaganda. Why is the death of Jesus something that fucks things up for the Jews? Where is the condemnation of Pilate's actions? This is still a Gospel view of how things transpired between Pilate and the Jewish leadership; matter of factly, the blame in this reconstruction is actually flipped and it is the Jewish leadership who is creating a mess. It sticks out like a sore thumb. It still reads like some scribal note intended for the margin.

A reconstruction that would be more believable:

Quote:

Now there was about this time a man Jesus son of Joseph, a carpenter by trade but who was also (or maybe an Essene, or some other such designation for who this Jesus person is and where he came from) a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. Christ, for the Jews, is one who would become ruler of all the known world. A king ordained by God, foretold in the Jewish oracles. And Pilate condemned him to death, Pilate being one who is short in temper and consistently executed even the slightest troublemakers without trial. This was yet another calamity forced upon the Jews by Pilate due to (???? some explanation for why the death of Jesus caused problems for the Jewish nation ????). Those that loved Jesus at the first did not forsake him. And from his unjust execution, a fifth school of Jewish philosophy, called Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

mountainman · 07-10-2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

aa5874 I doubt there is anything earlier than the 11th century, but I could be wrong.

It is true that any literate christian zealot could have forged the TF into Josephus and transplanted the results into Eusebius after Eusebius kicked the bucket, but there are other researchers out there (such as Ken Olsen) who take the time to argue that it was Big E. who piously forged the TF. I think that this explanation fits the commissioning and existence of a 4th century forgery mill quite adequately.

There are literally billions of people who make claims WITHOUT any evidence.

Evidence has been provided.

Quote:

Once you understand that the date of authorship of apologetic sources are questionable then you should realize that "Church History" may NOT have been written in the 4th century.

I have already provided you with EVIDENCE to the effect that the most horrible and hienous Bishop Cyril wrote a refutation against the most horrible and hienous lies of the Emperor Julian, in which he claims that the Emperor Julian had the audacity to write that Eusebius's historical claims were "wretched".

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Master of Heresiological Anathematisation, the Thug and Terrorist Boss Bishop and according to Sagan "Pyromaniac" Cyril of Alexandria, refuting the "LIES" of the Emperor Julian

Further, as regards the constitution of the state and the fashion of the law-courts, the administration of cities and the excellence of the laws, progress in learning and the cultivation of the liberal arts, were not all these things in a miserable and barbarous state among the Hebrews? And yet the wretched Eusebius will have it that poems in hexameters are to be found even among them, and sets up a claim that the study of logic exists among the Hebrews, since he has heard among the Hellenes the word they use for logic. What kind of healing art has ever appeared among the Hebrews, like that of Hippocrates among the Hellenes, and of certain other schools that came after him?

I think that Julian was just blowing the whistle on the Christian FORGERY MILL.
Julian seems to have digested Eusebius's wretched historical claims.
This represents evidence that at least some of Eusebius's wretched historical claims were available c.361 CE.

Quote:

A proper analysis of Apologetic sources will show that many writings are forgeries and were NOT written at the time suugested by the FAKE authors.

The Entire Canon was composed by FAKE authors, the supposed disciples, family, and Paul. It would appear that Fake authorship is STANDARD in Apologetic sources.

It is highly unlikely that ONLY the Canon contains FAKE authors.

The only name provided in relation to the authorship of the NT non canonical literature is the name of "Leucius Charinus", and most people think that this is a fake name. Yet Christian Emperors and Bishops and Compilers were cursing this name for all they were worth in the 4th/5th and subsequent centuries.

Minimalist · 07-10-2012, 03:51 PM

If an early copy of The Iliad were found would that make Apollo any more real?

pinkvoy · 07-10-2012, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

The problem is that this still doesn't fit the flow of where it presently is in Josephus.

Ant. 18.3.1 is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look how he is fucking things up for the Jews"

Then we have Ant. 18.3.2 which is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look at another way he is fucking things up for the Jews"

Then we have Ant. 18.3.4 which is (generally): "This guy Pilate, look at yet another way he is fucking things up for the Jews".

Ant. 18.3.3 is an anomaly in the general flow of the beginning of Ant. 18.3. Your current reconstruction doesn't fit the theme of "Pilate is fucking things up for the Jews". It's still just Christian propaganda. Why is the death of Jesus something that fucks things up for the Jews? Where is the condemnation of Pilate's actions? This is still a Gospel view of how things transpired between Pilate and the Jewish leadership; matter of factly, the blame in this reconstruction is actually flipped and it is the Jewish leadership who is creating a mess. It sticks out like a sore thumb. It still reads like some scribal note intended for the margin.

A reconstruction that would be more believable:

Quote:

Now there was about this time a man Jesus son of Joseph, a carpenter by trade but who was also (or maybe an Essene, or some other such designation for who this Jesus person is and where he came from) a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. Christ, for the Jews, is one who would become ruler of all the known world. A king ordained by God, foretold in the Jewish oracles. And Pilate condemned him to death, Pilate being one who is short in temper and consistently executed even the slightest troublemakers without trial. This was yet another calamity forced upon the Jews by Pilate due to (???? some explanation for why the death of Jesus caused problems for the Jewish nation ????). Those that loved Jesus at the first did not forsake him. And from his unjust execution, a fifth school of Jewish philosophy, called Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

it's called free association.

Pilate = crucifixion of Christ, but Christians still around.

pinkvoy · 07-10-2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

If an early copy of The Iliad were found would that make Apollo any more real?

red herring

pinkvoy · 07-10-2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanky

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

faith of a fundamentalist

No, just the understanding of someone who has spent countless hours wrestling with the facts presented us.

evidentally you seem unable to realize the significance of the finding I proposed

pinkvoy · 07-10-2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

By plausible I mean probable reconstruction, based on what is known of Josepheus style and subject matter.

Your reconstruction does not meet that test. The subject matter is out of place.

The statement says nothing about Josephus' personal knowledge, and there is no way he would have been a witness to Jesus. He might have witnessed some of the events in Acts, except that Peter and Paul are completely missing from his narrative.

Quote:

This represents a valid historical source.

Repeating this does not make it true. You will find that even historicists do not want to rely too heavily on the TF. The fact that it has obviously been forged by a Christian makes it too difficult to know what the original passage might have said, or even if it was about Jesus.

Such a discovery of an early manuscript would obviate and refute the above claims on factual grounds.

pinkvoy · 07-10-2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

...

I understand the proposed TF would be deemed a forgery by Jesus-mythicist fundamentalists who reject all evidence and logic to support their a priori beliefs in Jesus nonexistence. I don't see how it would be deemed a forgery by rationalists who study ancient history using the scientific method.

You use a lot of emotionally charged language like "absurd" "deemed forgeries" "ridiculing"

If you don't like people calling you names, please stop calling your debate opponents "fundamentalists."

And if you don't want people using emotionally charged language, stop using the term fundamentalist for anyone other than a real fundamentalist, and stop accusing a whole class of people of rejecting all evidence and logic.

Your proposed reconstructed TF has in fact been judged to be a complete forgery by rationalists who study ancient history using the scientific method. If you don't see why, you haven't read enough the subject. You might want to start here and concentrate on the arguments of Ken Olson.

Highly respected scholars have proposed the TF reconstruction as I have posted, i.e Bart Ehrman, James Dunn, etc

View Poll Results: a question for Christ mythicist, suppose an early copy of Josephus was found
I am a Christ mythicist, this version of Testimonium would falsify my beliefs	0	0%
I am a Christ mythicist, I would still believe in Jesus myth w/this version of Testimonium	4	57.14%
I believe in a historical Jesus, this version of Testimonium would support it.	3	42.86%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-10-2012, 03:51 PM	#55
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	If an early copy of The Iliad were found would that make Apollo any more real?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.