Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pinkvoy · 07-08-2012, 08:23 AM

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Quote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

badger3k · 07-08-2012, 09:55 AM

If it can only be dated to the 2nd or 3rd century, then no. We need primary sources for more conclusive evidence. 100-200+ years after the fact...not good enough. There's still way too much time for additions, interpolations, etc.

It also wouldn't solve the other problems with such quotations - for example, if it was early enough (assume that it was) why wasn't it quoted by the Church Fathers in their arguments, etc. That's just off the top of my head without a lot of thought, so take that for what it's worth. I'm sure others can provide more and/or better responses.

PhilosopherJay · 07-08-2012, 01:58 PM

Hi pinkvoy,

Yes, this would certainly add credibility to the historical Jesus case.

The fact that nothing like this has been found in over 200 years of archaeological work suggests the strength of the mythicist case. Every week that passes without such a discovery strengthens the mythicist case.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Quote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

Toto · 07-08-2012, 02:20 PM

This would not "establish" a historical Jesus but it might change some of the probability calculations about his existence.

PhilosopherJay · 07-08-2012, 02:32 PM

Hi Toto,

Exactly. If we could pinpoint it to around the year 100 CE, it would move the probability from .01% to 1%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This would not "establish" a historical Jesus but it might change some of the probability calculations about his existence.

pinkvoy · 07-08-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi pinkvoy,

Yes, this would certainly add credibility to the historical Jesus case.

The fact that nothing like this has been found in over 200 years of archaeological work suggests the strength of the mythicist case. Every week that passes without such a discovery strengthens the mythicist case.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

argument from silence.

pinkvoy · 07-08-2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This would not "establish" a historical Jesus but it might change some of the probability calculations about his existence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Toto,

Exactly. If we could pinpoint it to around the year 100 CE, it would move the probability from .01% to 1%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This would not "establish" a historical Jesus but it might change some of the probability calculations about his existence.

If the TF had read like that, there is no credibility to claims of Jesus non-existence by accepted standards of historical inquiry.

This version of TF is plausible reconstruction of the original text.

Josepheus was a contemporary and lived and written in the same location and time period as the events of the NT narrate, and accepted Jesus' existence as well as the origins of Christianity. It represents an independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, John, James.

I would ask how a 21 century Christ mythicist living in the US purports to know Jesus does not exist, when his contemporary, Flavius Josepheus was there lived in the times, and accepted his existence and wrote about him, John, Pilate, Herod, and James.

aa5874 · 07-08-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Quote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin, who called him Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

The very first thing that must be understood is that it is completely MYOPIC to use one isolated passage from Josephus to determine the historicity of the character called Jesus in the NT.

If everything else remains the same and your proposed version of the TF is unearthed then it would STILL be a forgery.

Your proposed TF is NOT even compatible with the short-ending gMark and the Pauline writings and Josephus himself in an earlier writing claimed it was Vespasian that was the Predicted Messianic ruler according to Hebrew Scripture.

There was NO character known to Josephus as Jesus Christ in "Wars of the Jews" an ealier writing.

Mandelbrot · 07-08-2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

Josepheus was a contemporary and lived and written in the same location and time period as the events of the NT narrate, and accepted Jesus' existence as well as the origins of Christianity. It represents an independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, John, James.

I would ask how a 21 century Christ mythicist living in the US purports to know Jesus does not exist, when his contemporary, Flavius Josepheus was there lived in the times, and accepted his existence and wrote about him, John, Pilate, Herod, and James.

Either you don't know what a contemporary is or you have some other proof that Josephus was alive prior to 37 CE. Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus, try again.

pinkvoy · 07-08-2012, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkvoy

I have a question for Christ-mythicist,

suppose an early copy of Josepheus early works Antiquities of the Jews, either partial or total, was found, maybe in a cave like Dead Sea Scrolls or Nag Hammadi or archeological dig at Oxyrhynchus,, or in a library, that can be dated around 2nd or 3rd century, and in that copy it had a Testimonium Flavianum that read like this:

Would this establish the existence of a historical Jesus?

The very first thing that must be understood is that it is completely MYOPIC to use one isolated passage from Josephus to determine the historicity of the character called Jesus in the NT.

If everything else remains the same and your proposed version of the TF is unearthed then it would STILL be a forgery.

Your proposed TF is NOT even compatible with the short-ending gMark and the Pauline writings and Josephus himself in an earlier writing claimed it was Vespasian that was the Predicted Messianic ruler according to Hebrew Scripture.

There was NO character known to Josephus as Jesus Christ in "Wars of the Jews" an ealier writing.

You have a lot emotionally invested in this. I sense a lot of anger that clouds your judgment.

View Poll Results: a question for Christ mythicist, suppose an early copy of Josephus was found
I am a Christ mythicist, this version of Testimonium would falsify my beliefs	0	0%
I am a Christ mythicist, I would still believe in Jesus myth w/this version of Testimonium	4	57.14%
I believe in a historical Jesus, this version of Testimonium would support it.	3	42.86%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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07-08-2012, 09:55 AM	#2
badger3k Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 1,388	If it can only be dated to the 2nd or 3rd century, then no. We need primary sources for more conclusive evidence. 100-200+ years after the fact...not good enough. There's still way too much time for additions, interpolations, etc. It also wouldn't solve the other problems with such quotations - for example, if it was early enough (assume that it was) why wasn't it quoted by the Church Fathers in their arguments, etc. That's just off the top of my head without a lot of thought, so take that for what it's worth. I'm sure others can provide more and/or better responses.

07-08-2012, 02:20 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This would not "establish" a historical Jesus but it might change some of the probability calculations about his existence.

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