Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-21-2006, 10:50 PM

In his article entitled "Hermes Trismegistus and Apollonius of Tyana in the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", Keven Brown writes:

Quote:

The identification of Hermes with the qur’ánic Idrês, who had already been identified with Enoch by the Jews,[63] was made by the psuedo-Sabians of Harrán during the reign of al-Ma’mún. In the words of Mas‘údê (d. 959): "Enoch is identical with the Prophet Idrês; the Sabians say he is the same person as Hermes."[64] Harrán, in Syria, had remained a stronghold of pagan religion and learning where Christianity had not been able to penetrate. Here, it seems that both philosophical and technical Hermetica were well-known and in use. The story of al-Ma‘mún’s encounter with the Harránians is related by Ibn an-Nadêm, who took his account from that of a Christian named Abú Yúsuf Aysha’ al-Qatê‘ê. According to this account, the caliph was on a military expedition into the land of the Byzantines, during which time he was received by people who came to swear allegiance to him. Among them were the Harráians. When al-Ma‘mún asked them about their religion, they were unable to give a satisfactory answer. Al-Ma‘mún said: "Then you must be heretics and worshipers of idols; your blood is lawful....You must choose either Islam or any of the religions which God has mentioned in His Book, otherwise you shall be exterminated."[65] To escape from this impasse, the Harránians identified themselves with the Mandaean Sabians mentioned in the Qur‘án, and said that their Prophets were Hermes and Agathodaimon (said to be the Biblical Seth), and their scriptures the writings of Hermes.

The full article is here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/Hermes...even_Brown.htm

My question is this. Are the names Enoch, Idris and Hermes traditionally associated in the field of biblical studies?

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

Clivedurdle · 04-22-2006, 12:49 PM

Googling

Enoch, Idris and Hermes

gives some fascinating stuff, including Atlas and Osiris!

Why do we not treat the NT equally to all this stuff, why the bias towards this jesus messiah? They are all attempts to understand the fact that we are both mammals that die and gods that can imagine and do many things, including ending worlds. Which is why I think Jung is so important, with Frazer, they are putting a framework on these beliefs. But the Biblicists are very weak on myth and legend....the early reaction was that it was satan mimicing xianity!

Quote:

Atlas, the Phoenix King, king of Atlantis, is also known in various traditions as Enoch, Idris, Osiris, Temu, and Hermes Trismegistus. In all these traditions he is described as the first human soul to please God and be translated alive and bodily to the highest heaven, to become what the Hebraic tradition calls the Messiah, Greek tradition calls the Christos, and Christianity calls the Christ.

As Enoch, he is mentioned several times in the Hebraic-Christian bible (Genesis, Ecclesiasticus and St Paul’s Epistle to the Hebrews), wherein he is described as the son of Lamed, a member of the line of descent through Seth, the fourth son of Adam and Eve, by which the knowledge of God was preserved.

Rabbinic tradition states that Enoch, out of his love for humanity, chose to continually return to earth to help humanity until every human soul has managed to reach the same level of Christhood. As such, Enoch is humanity's Great Teacher, Initiator and Friend.

To do this, Enoch first prepares us and then illuminates us.

http://www.zoence.co.uk/info_sheets/atlas.html

River · 04-22-2006, 04:37 PM

Although,

not definitive...

some have linked Prophet Enoch (pbuh)

with

www.khidr.org

Clivedurdle · 04-22-2006, 05:16 PM

Not the Green Man!

http://members.tripod.com/MoonTyde_S.../Greenman.html

And guess who have written about him - JG and a prominent psychotherapist!

If Islam is into this it is definitely into deep dyed paganism!

andrewcriddle · 04-23-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

My question is this. Are the names Enoch, Idris and Hermes traditionally associated in the field of biblical studies?

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

IIUC it is widely accepted that the reference to Idris in Koran Sura 19

Quote:

And of Idris he too was a saint and a prophet whom we honoured and exalted

refers to the Biblical Enoch.

The identification of Idris with Hermes is presumably considerably later.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 04-26-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IIUC it is widely accepted that the reference to Idris in Koran Sura 19 refers to the Biblical Enoch.

The identification of Idris with Hermes is presumably considerably later.

Andrew Criddle

I have since found this quotation:

Quote:

"Enoch was the first who invented books and different sorts of writing. The ancient Greeks declare that Enoch is the same as Mercury Trismegistus [Hermes], and that he taught the sons of men the art of building cities, and enacted some admirable laws...He discovered the knowledge of the Zodiac, and the course of the Planets; and he pointed out to the sons of men, that they should worship God, that they should fast, that they should pray, that they should give alms, votive offerings, and tenths. He reprobated abominable foods and drunkenness, and appointed festivals for sacrifices to the Sun, at each of the Zodiacal Signs."
- Hebraeus (c.1260 CE)

Which ancient greeks would have declared this, and when?

Finally, is the book of Enoch considered to be in any way associated with christianity? And if so, in what way?
Thanks,

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

tdcanam · 04-26-2006, 09:44 AM

Are you referring to the Enoch in the christian bible in Gen. 4:17-5:24, Luke 3:37, Heb. 11:5 and Jude 1:14 and Hermes of Romans 16:14?

Just wondering.

andrewcriddle · 04-26-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

I have since found this quotation:

Which ancient greeks would have declared this, and when?

IMVHO this may just mean that the Greek Hermetic literature (2nd-3rd century CE but claiming to be much older) attributes similar things to Hermes Trismegistus as Hebrew tradition did to Enoch

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Finally, is the book of Enoch considered to be in any way associated with christianity? And if so, in what way?
Thanks,

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au

Enoch is part of the Apocalyptic background to Christianity. (It is regarded as quasi-canonical in the Ethiopic Church.)

How important exactly it is depends on whether the Similitudes of Enoch (Enoch 37-71) with its references to the 'Son of Man' is pre-Christian or post-Christian.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 04-27-2006, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

IMVHO this may just mean that the Greek Hermetic literature (2nd-3rd century CE but claiming to be much older) attributes similar things to Hermes Trismegistus as Hebrew tradition did to Enoch

The claim that they are different people (one of the Greeks, and one of the Hebrews) is separate to the claim that they are one and the same person. That they were in fact one and the same person IMHO does not suit the argument for the "quasi-canonicity" of the book of Enoch ...

Quote:

Enoch is part of the Apocalyptic background to Christianity. (It is regarded as quasi-canonical in the Ethiopic Church.)

How important exactly it is depends on whether the Similitudes of Enoch (Enoch 37-71) with its references to the 'Son of Man' is pre-Christian or post-Christian.

Let's assume the book predates christianity, and the supposed legendary author is mentioned by not only the Hellenic legends but the Hebrew legends. Would this not imply that the Book of Enoch has absolutely nothing to do with the phenomenom of christianity?

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au/article_029.htm

Magdlyn · 04-27-2006, 07:30 AM

The Book of Enoch predates Christianity and influenced it. Here is a list of similarities between Enoch and verses from the NT:

http://www.stargods.org/EnochQuoted.htm

Jude directly quotes Enoch:

Jude 1:14-15 [14] Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [15] to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Jude 9:

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

has been thought to refer to Enoch, but this is controversial.

"The materials in I Enoch range in date from 200 B.C.E. to 50 C.E. I Enoch contributes much to intertestamental views of angels, heaven, judgment, resurrection, and the Messiah. This book has left its stamp upon many of the NT writers, especially the author of Revelation."
- Craig A. Evans, Noncanonical Writings and New Testament Interpretation (or via: amazon.co.uk), (1992) p. 23

04-26-2006, 09:44 AM	#7
tdcanam Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 160	Enoch? Are you referring to the Enoch in the christian bible in Gen. 4:17-5:24, Luke 3:37, Heb. 11:5 and Jude 1:14 and Hermes of Romans 16:14? Just wondering.

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04-22-2006, 04:37 PM	#3
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	Although, not definitive... some have linked Prophet Enoch (pbuh) with www.khidr.org

04-22-2006, 05:16 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Not the Green Man! http://members.tripod.com/MoonTyde_S.../Greenman.html And guess who have written about him - JG and a prominent psychotherapist! If Islam is into this it is definitely into deep dyed paganism!

04-27-2006, 07:30 AM	#10
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	The Book of Enoch predates Christianity and influenced it. Here is a list of similarities between Enoch and verses from the NT: http://www.stargods.org/EnochQuoted.htm Jude directly quotes Enoch: Jude 1:14-15 [14] Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, [15] to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." Jude 9: "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." has been thought to refer to Enoch, but this is controversial. "The materials in I Enoch range in date from 200 B.C.E. to 50 C.E. I Enoch contributes much to intertestamental views of angels, heaven, judgment, resurrection, and the Messiah. This book has left its stamp upon many of the NT writers, especially the author of Revelation." - Craig A. Evans, Noncanonical Writings and New Testament Interpretation (or via: amazon.co.uk), (1992) p. 23

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