Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 04-10-2009, 04:26 AM

Does anyone have access to this book? If so, can they locate the passage for us which appears on pp.103-4 of the English translation, and reads:

Quote:

Justin records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.' In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date it seems to confirm Justin's assertion.

Is the portion in bold given in French, perhaps?

Many thanks,

Roger Pearse

God Fearing Atheist · 04-10-2009, 01:44 PM

I just requested it via ILL. Hopefully it'll arrive soon.

Roger Pearse · 04-11-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

I just requested it via ILL. Hopefully it'll arrive soon.

That is very kind of you!

No Robots · 04-11-2009, 07:17 AM

Hey Roger:

You seem to have already done a great job of debunking this.

Roger Pearse · 04-11-2009, 09:53 AM

Thank you for the kind words. I had forgotten ever writing that summary in talk.origins! But it's a good summary.

I asked about this myth in this very forum, actually! This is the thread in which I did all the research; indeed am still researching. Andrew Criddle really got the ball rolling by identifying the papers loosely referred to as "Cumont".

Someone has suggested that I publish this as one or more academic articles, since in the process I have had to do original research, look into Cumont's papers, obtain unpublished texts and get them translated, and track down material otherwise unknown to scholarship. Maybe I will.

This issue is a loose end in the whole process. It's clear enough that the English translation of Vermaseren (which was not done by him, but by some publisher's hacks) does not represent Cumont rightly, since it renders his "Le Zardusht" as "The Zardusht" rather than "Zoroaster." This must be a mistranslation from French, with its characteristic use of "The" in front of a proper name.

The passage also refers to Zoroaster as Zarathustra and then as The Zardusht in a few words -- as if this is not one and the same person -- which is very misleading.

But I can't tell whether the mistake is Vermaseren's, or merely the English translators. If I ever go into print with this, of course I need to know! Thus I need to look at the original. Since I know Dutchmen read this forum, and might have the book, a query seemed merited. What I want is an image of the relevant page.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

God Fearing Atheist · 04-11-2009, 03:39 PM

Roger,

Because I don't read Dutch, I was hoping you could give me some additional information to help in locating the passage when the book arrives (assuming there is some significant difference in page numbering). Could you tell me what chapter/section it's found in the translation? Roughly where in that section it's located (beginning, middle, end)?

God Fearing Atheist · 04-15-2009, 06:42 PM

Okay. After some digging around, I was finally able to find it. Starting on the bottom of page 82 and continuing onto page 83:

Quote:

Justinus vermeldt, dat de maaltijd gapaard ging met enige formules (μετ´ ἐπιλόγων τινων [note: the omega in τινων is accented with a circumflex..I forget how to make one on here]). Ook deze kunnen veel gelijkenis vertoond hebben met die van het Avondmaal. Een middeleeuwse tekst, welke door Cumont werd gepubliceerd, is in dit verband bijzonder interessant. Want hierin wordt de waarheid van Christus gesteld tegenover het woord van Zarathustra; deze Zardahst sprak nog tot zijn leerlingen: 'Wie niet van mijn vermengt en ik mij met hem vermeng, die zal het heil niet hebben...'. Maar Christus sprak tot zijn leerlingen: 'Wie Mijn Lichaam eet en Mijn bloed drinkt, zal het eeuwig leven hebben.' Deze belangrijke tekst plaatst ons midden in de strijd tussen de Christenen en hun tegenstanders en kan, hoewel laat in datum, misschien de bewering van Justinus bevestigen.

God Fearing Atheist · 04-15-2009, 06:55 PM

On a related note, while at the library I checked out the only citation i've ever seen for interpreting "et nos servasti eternali sanguine faso," line 14 of the older inscription at the Santa Prisca Mithraeum, as refering to the shedding of Mithras' blood (as opposed to the bull's). On pages 219 and 220 of Vermaseren and van Essen's The Excavations in the Mithraeum of the Church of Santa Prisco in Rome (Leiden, 1965) they write:

Quote:

It is my view that with our present knowledge about the mysteries and bearing in mind the remarks of Gougel it is impossible to determine whether the Mithraic verse was influenced by the Christian faith or vice versa. In the first place we do not know whether behind the ideas about the death of the bull there was a conception that Mithras himself was the bull and therefore killed himself in order to give eternal life to his followers. G. Messina rightly remarks that there is no indication of such an assumption either in the Iranian writings or in later Mithraism. The text in S. Prisca may possibly suggest that this conception existed but the evidence is insufficent.

So, Betz (1968) seems to be generous in regarding the interpretation as "highly speculative."

Roger Pearse · 04-15-2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Okay. After some digging around, I was finally able to find it. Starting on the bottom of page 82 and continuing onto page 83:

Quote:

Justinus vermeldt, dat de maaltijd gapaard ging met enige formules (μετ´ ἐπιλόγων τινων [note: the omega in τινων is accented with a circumflex..I forget how to make one on here]). Ook deze kunnen veel gelijkenis vertoond hebben met die van het Avondmaal. Een middeleeuwse tekst, welke door Cumont werd gepubliceerd, is in dit verband bijzonder interessant. Want hierin wordt de waarheid van Christus gesteld tegenover het woord van Zarathustra; deze Zardahst sprak nog tot zijn leerlingen: 'Wie niet van mijn vermengt en ik mij met hem vermeng, die zal het heil niet hebben...'. Maar Christus sprak tot zijn leerlingen: 'Wie Mijn Lichaam eet en Mijn bloed drinkt, zal het eeuwig leven hebben.' Deze belangrijke tekst plaatst ons midden in de strijd tussen de Christenen en hun tegenstanders en kan, hoewel laat in datum, misschien de bewering van Justinus bevestigen.

Aha! Thank you very much indeed.

Any chance of images of the two pages?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

God Fearing Atheist · 04-16-2009, 05:57 PM

I'll scan it and email it to you tomorrow, Roger.

I also have a request of my own. Does anyone have easy access to Cumont? I need to check a citation given as "Cumont II p. 179 no. 584, note," which I assume is to the second volume of Textes et Monuments Figures Relatifs aux Mysteres de Mithra. It should be an explanation/critique of CIL 6.736.

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04-10-2009, 01:44 PM	#2
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	I just requested it via ILL. Hopefully it'll arrive soon.

04-11-2009, 07:17 AM	#4
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	Hey Roger: You seem to have already done a great job of debunking this.

04-11-2009, 09:53 AM	#5
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Thank you for the kind words. I had forgotten ever writing that summary in talk.origins! But it's a good summary. I asked about this myth in this very forum, actually! This is the thread in which I did all the research; indeed am still researching. Andrew Criddle really got the ball rolling by identifying the papers loosely referred to as "Cumont". Someone has suggested that I publish this as one or more academic articles, since in the process I have had to do original research, look into Cumont's papers, obtain unpublished texts and get them translated, and track down material otherwise unknown to scholarship. Maybe I will. This issue is a loose end in the whole process. It's clear enough that the English translation of Vermaseren (which was not done by him, but by some publisher's hacks) does not represent Cumont rightly, since it renders his "Le Zardusht" as "The Zardusht" rather than "Zoroaster." This must be a mistranslation from French, with its characteristic use of "The" in front of a proper name. The passage also refers to Zoroaster as Zarathustra and then as The Zardusht in a few words -- as if this is not one and the same person -- which is very misleading. But I can't tell whether the mistake is Vermaseren's, or merely the English translators. If I ever go into print with this, of course I need to know! Thus I need to look at the original. Since I know Dutchmen read this forum, and might have the book, a query seemed merited. What I want is an image of the relevant page. All the best, Roger Pearse

04-11-2009, 03:39 PM	#6
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Roger, Because I don't read Dutch, I was hoping you could give me some additional information to help in locating the passage when the book arrives (assuming there is some significant difference in page numbering). Could you tell me what chapter/section it's found in the translation? Roughly where in that section it's located (beginning, middle, end)?

04-16-2009, 05:57 PM	#10
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	I'll scan it and email it to you tomorrow, Roger. I also have a request of my own. Does anyone have easy access to Cumont? I need to check a citation given as "Cumont II p. 179 no. 584, note," which I assume is to the second volume of Textes et Monuments Figures Relatifs aux Mysteres de Mithra. It should be an explanation/critique of CIL 6.736.

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