dongiovanni1976x

Did this lady by chance attend the same hell hole that fed you the manure which you have been spewing?

Did she happen to ever consult with Dr. Bikai when she was knee deep in this manure proving that Tyre is located at 35° 16' latitude and 33° 11' longitude and that the "location of the city of Tyre is not in doubt, for it exists to this day on the same spot and is known as Sur.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p9) ?

Where did this nice lady do her archaeological studies?

aa5874

You missed my point, there are no prophecies in the Bible there are just false statements. The Christian Bible is pure man-made fabrications. So Ekezekiel could not prophecied anything about Tyre. Making statements after the fact is not prophecy, but fraud.

The entire Christian Bible is full of contradictions and inconsistencies. The authors of the Christian Bible are unknown, the date of the actual writings are unknown. Ezekiel is an unverifiable character. Allah does not know Ezekiel, the Hindu Gods do not know Ezekiel.

The Christian Bible clearly shows that the Christian Gods are mythology and Ezekiel is folklore.

dongiovanni1976x

I can follow you. Sorry for the miss understanding. I would however argue that Ezekiel was likely a real historical person and did in fact make the prediction about Tyre prior to the Nebuchadnezzar's failure to take it- as evidenced by the fact that he later tried to explain away this event in chapter 29 (v 17-18).

Also I would add that Allah is likewise mythical and stands on even less certain grounds since he sprung up as a reaction to the "people of the book" from combination of Bedouin paganism and Byzantine missionary influence.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

But the point I am making needs to be made! The claim is that this somehow refutes all prophecies, and it actually doesn't.

But back to Tyre.

As it turns out, in this thread I did even grant the point that Tyre did perhaps not sink, but I do believe the view that Tyre sunk can be defended, I note that one skeptic even posted a map of the island of Hercules in the area, which is now underwater, and then somehow refused to acknowledge that this could be evidence that Tyre could have sunk.

Yes, this is why I revised my position.

Well, in the very comment referenced in your quote, Jidejian points to ruins (not rubble!) underwater, which I think may indicate parts of the island sinking.

"The 'Egyptian' port facing south is no more. Looking down into the water one can see a mass of granite columns and stone blocks strewn over the sea bottom. Until recently the ruins of Tyre above water were few." ("Tyre through the Ages," p. 13)

Ruins don't get underwater in the ocean very easily!

" In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre later was rebuilt and assumed some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the Mediterranean, in the same subsidence that submerged the port of Caesarea that Herod had built up with such expense and care. All that remains of it is a series of black reefs offshore from Tyre, which surely could not have been there in the first and second millennia B.C., since they pose such a threat to navigation. The promontory that now juts out from the coastline probably was washed up along the barrier of Alexander's causeway, but the island itself broke off and sank away when the subsidence took place; and we have no evidence at all that it ever was built up again after Alexander's terrible act of vengeance. In the light of these data, then, the predictions of chapter 26, improbable though they must have seemed in Ezekiel's time, were duly fulfilled to the letter--first by Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century, and then by Alexander in the fourth." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties)

Yes, that's fine, I agree, this is the place where ancient Tyre was.

Right, but all I need is that the ancient city sank, other parts around this site could be rebuilt. Why are there no Phoenician ruins on display there, may I ask? If the island did not sink, why have they not apparently been able to dig to the Phoenician level?

There are Byzantine/Greek/Roman ruins down underground on the land areas. But so far, no Phoenician ruins below them, it does seem.

Residents can return, but this does not prove the return of the city! Those walls are not in evidence now, we may note, and Renan (the archaeologist) called Tyre "a city of ruins built out of ruins" when he visited there.

But the Biblical text can also be read "Will not be built more" (Eze. 26:14) i.e. all building there would stop ("you will be built no more", NAU version), as in this other use of this expression:

Ex. 9:29 "As soon as I go out of the city, I will spread out my hands to the Lord ... there will be hail no longer..."

Which need not mean that there would never be any hail again in Egypt, rather it must mean that this current hailstorm would stop completely. Or here:

Neh. 2:17 Then I said to them ... "Come and let us build the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer be a reproach."

And this would then be followed by a complete desolation, which we have evidence for, followed then possibly by subsequent rebuilding, so this also can be a view that is defensible.

Erm, the pictures show ruins underwater, and none underground, so I think they back the prophecy up, even if the view I started with in the Tyre thread is taken.

Well, "Palaetyrus was forced to submit to Nebuchadnezzar" (Tyre through the Ages, p.13). That's a good explanation! Which fits the first prophecy, no need to explain it away.

Regards,
Lee

dongiovanni1976x

The point you need to make is to actually establish that any prophecy has actually occurred. But we have started with this one, and when the questions and concerns raised regarding it are satisfactorily answered, we can then move on to whatever next putative prophecy that you desire to make a case for.
I do want to make clear however that I understand your point completely. If there are a thousand prophecies in the Bible and this one happens to fall short of being one it still means there are 999 more. But my point is that I think it is more productive to stick to one at a time, make your case for it, listen to the responses you get and make your defense of those critiques. This is how peer review works. My only objection is that we should not consider it a fact that there are legitimate prophecies in the Bible before we analyze them and additionally, that is somehow the job of the skeptic to “disprove” these alleged prophecies…quite the contrary- the case must be made for whatever supposed prophecy you want to assert, and I assure you we will get to those in due time.
Water levels do fluctuate with time. And it is also a fact that silt and debris alter coast lines. This is true with the case of Tyre. The southern half of the ancient island, where the Egyptian harbor and the South-western temple you speak of were located, has been silted up from this debris and the rise in water level in the past 2400 years has altered the shape of the island. You are right Lee,[B]it is a fact that the southern part of the island is underwater.[B]
But even if we assume that global warming was as much a factor as it is today and if we assume that Tyrian water level in the more stable Mediterranean was comparable to coastlines along the major oceans like the Atlantic, we can say with a high degree of certainty that water level of and around the Tyre rose no more than 2.48 inches between Alexander’s siege in 332 BCE and that of his general, Antigonus in 315 BCE. And could have risen as much as 4 feet between Antigonus’ siege and the time when Paul visited the city 360 some odd years later. (source: U.S. Geological Survey on Holocene Water Levels in the Mid-Atlantic http://geology.er.usgs.gov/eespteam/...ic/Task3sl.htm )
If Tyre was above sea level when Alexander besieged it, and it was above sea level when his general Antigonus besieged it, and it was above sea level when Paul of Tarsus visited when is it, then when is it that you think that God brought up the deep over Tyre and the great waters covered it, though sought for never found again? (Ez 26:19-21)
But just positing the “possibility” that an inhabited island sank at some time in the past, does nothing to support Ezekiel’s prophecy which said that the ocean would cover Tyre, its inhabitants would descend into the Pit (cast into the Pit of Sheol), that it would be lost and never found, never built on again and of course never inhabited.
And you are right. But I thought you were implying that the whole island sank and was lost forever in accordance with the scriptures. I came to this conclusion based upon your source, Gleason Archer who says,
If this was the case then where do you think Dr. Patricia Bikai was excavating from 1971-75 if she addresses the island specifically? Dr. Bikai was preceded by Dr. Frost, an archaeologist who in 1966 excavated the island city and found two 5th century parallel walls built at sea level which show evidence of ancient bombardment. These walls were most recently shown on the History Channels special on Alexander in September of 2004. They are agreed by historians to be the walls of ancient Tyre where Alexander breached the famous fortification and sacked the city. (source: Bikai, P., History of Excavations in Chapter 3 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” p33 1992)
This seems to answer your question In addition, Denyse Le Lasseur was given a commission to excavate the island area by the High Commision of the French Republic of Syria and Lebanon in 1921. Dr. Bikai informs us that “Le Lasseur returned in 1923 to investigate the south cost of the island where part of the ancient city had been recovered.” Sixty some odd years earlier Ernest Renan, a French Semiticist who was provided French soldiers and commissioned by Napoleon III excavated an area on the island that Dr. Bikai says, was so All of the archaeological and literary evidence suggests that the ancient island had two harbors, the northern Sidonian port and the Egpytian one facing south to Egypt. The latter is under water as you have stated but the former is still in use to this day. Thus the island did not “break off” and disappear as Mr. Archer asserts, quite the opposite, it in fact increased in size and has been continuously inhabited to this day.
Moving on…
I have demonstrated that the walls are in evidence and there have been Phoenician finds on the island city. But the point was that Dr. Bikai stresses that the new land (i.e. the causeway) was IMMEDIATELY put to use by the over-crowed residents of the ISLAND- notorious for the smell etc etc…

First of all I disagree. The Hebrew says, ‘banah’ and means ‘to build, rebuild, built etc’ saying you will not be built or saying you will be built no more immediately after saying that the place would be turned into a bare rock means it will not be rebuilt. But even if you stretched the meaning here as far as you are it does not answer the fact that the prophecy says that after Tyre is made into a bare rock and it inhabitants are cast into the Pit and the waters cover it, that Tyre will never be found again and it will not be inhabited and be no more forever. (26:21)
By trying to make this prophecy “defensible” you are stripping it of its significance as a prophecy. If you would like for me to demonstrate, I can take a similar stance and play devils advocate with Nostradamus and show you ambiguous ways to read into his predictions but that does not make them any less ridiculous.

dongiovanni1976x

To ellaborate, because you seem to think that Tye sunk away into oblivion...I thought the picture above from google earth could show you where the island is. The Sidonian and Egyptian harbors have always been a part of the post-Hiramian island and the island was always the commercial, administrative and religious center of the city.

lee_merrill

I appreciate very much the civil discussion! This has not been my take on prior such threads about Tyre.

I would only note that Farrell Till picked one of the most disputed prophecies! I do understand why, may I add...

Yes, agreed, glad to discuss other prophecies later (as I have done, actually, in other threads, as in the Babylon link I posted).

Yes, I agree that this is the place ancient Tyre was, now where the ancient fortress was, and whether that sank, is the issue I would want to work on.

That's not going to submerge buildings, though! Nor ruins, even.

That I don't know, I only note we may observe such ruins underwater, at "the sea bottom."

Well, if it's underwater, it's uninhabited! And rather lost, like Atlantis.

That was indeed my first view I held in my first IIDB Tyre thread. I think I will defend that view again here!

Defending again my first view, I would say she was excavating the peninsula.

Indeed, this tourist does mention "Phoenician remains of walls," yet official Tyre tourist pages seem not to mention this.

From this last page: "The most important recent archaeological find is a Phoenician cemetery from the first millennium B.C." Well then, not walls, but a cemetery? I would think actual fortress walls would be quite a bit more important.

And also this, apparently referring to the same place the tourist was: "A short distance from the shore you will see 'islands' which are, in fact, the great stone breakwaters and jetties of the ancient Phoenician port, called the 'Egyptian port' because it faced south towards Egypt."

Again, no mention of walls, perhaps the official conclusion has been changed, since the 1960s?

Yes, this is the strongest point in favor of the view that the island did not sink. Yet there is evidence the other way, too, I shall still note absence of ruins, until proven otherwise!

I haven't read all the thread, could you give me some words to search for, or (better yet a post number)?

This (being my second option here) seems to mean the inhabitants, though, how could a city go down to the Pit? That was a place reserved for people, not marble columns.

Ezekiel 26:21 "I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more..."

Buildings aren't especially prone to terror!

I would say I am not taking undue license here, though. Don't the examples of hail etc. show that this phrase has other valid meanings than "never ever again"? And this prophecy is not like Nostradamus, there is nothing comparable to naming Nebuchanezzar and his army doing this and that, etc., that I know of, in all his writings!

Regards,
Lee

aa5874

The Christian Bible is claimed to be the inerrant Word of God, any single error in prophecy destroys the Christian Bible. Prophecies are claimed to be from the Gods, therefore there is no room whatsoever for inaccuracies. Divenely inspired writings must be absolutely true and must be held to the highest standards.

dongiovanni1976x

Lee, Before more confusion develops could you please replace the pronouns highlighted in red with the appropriate noun YOU think they are referring to. I have argued that Tyre was founded on an island, and that the mainland, which was called Ushu supplied Tyre with water, food and burial grounds. I maintain this position and you have conceded that Tyre was "both" but I think this muddies the water and when you say things like: It makes it hard for me to feel as though I am properly conveying to you where I think our confusion may be originating.
Therefore, could you please replace the pronouns in red with either Tyre (the island half a mile from the coast, which contained the administrative center with the kings palace, the religious center with the ancient temple of Heracles and the major harbors for maritime trade (the Sidonian and Egyptian) that made Tyre the "Queen of the Seas") --OR-- replace the pronoun with PalaeTyrus (the coastal region with a larger population, fresh water and burial grounds)
OR, If you prefer, replace the pronoun with BOTH by saying Tyre&Palaetyrus
In any case, just briefly explain why you picked the one you did in each case. I think this will clear up quite a bit of confusion.

1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Tyre: Will not the coastlands tremble at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan and the slaughter takes place in you? 16 Then all the princes of the coast will step down from their thrones and lay aside their robes and take off their embroidered garments. Clothed with terror, they will sit on the ground, trembling every moment, appalled at you. 17 Then they will take up a lament concerning you and say to you:
" 'How you are destroyed, O city of renown,
peopled by men of the sea!
You were a power on the seas,
you and your citizens;
you put your terror
on all who lived there.
18 Now the coastlands tremble
on the day of your fall;
the islands in the sea
are terrified at your collapse.'
19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."

lee_merrill

Quite an assignment! I will use "P" for the coastal city, "T" for Tyre on the island, and "PT" when I believe both are meant, though I think I need not explain every instance! Any ones you question you can raise those items with me. I will also use "p" for the people of the coastal city, and "t" for the people of the island, and "pt" for the people of both.

1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against PTpt, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against PTpt, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down PT towers; I will scrape away PT rubble and make PT a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea T will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. PT (and maybe pt?) will become plunder for the nations, 6 and P settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then pt will know that I am the LORD.
7 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage P settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against P, build a ramp up to P walls and raise his shields against P. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against P walls and demolish P towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover P with dust. P walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters P gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all P streets; he will kill p people with the sword, and P strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder P wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down P walls and demolish P fine houses and throw P stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to PT noisy songs, and the music of PT harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make T a bare rock, and T will become a place to spread fishnets. T will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says to Tyre: Will not the coastlands tremble at the sound of PT fall, when the wounded groan and the slaughter takes place in PT? 16 Then all the princes of the coast will step down from their thrones and lay aside their robes and take off their embroidered garments. Clothed with terror, they will sit on the ground, trembling every moment, appalled at PTpt. 17 Then they will take up a lament concerning PTpt and say to PTpt:
" 'How PT are destroyed, O city of renown,
peopled by men of the sea!
PT were a power on the seas,
PT and PT citizens;
PT put PT terror
on all who lived there.
18 Now the coastlands tremble
on the day of PT fall;
the islands in the sea
are terrified at PT collapse.'
19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make T a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over T and its vast waters cover T, 20 then I will bring t (and p?) down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make t (and p?) dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and t (and p?) will not return or take t (and p?) place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring t (and p?) and their fortress city to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but t (and p?) and their fortress city, and their trading will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."