Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following:

http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../983front.html

The Prophecy Farce, by Farrell Till

What about all of the prophecy fulfillments? Biblicists almost always ask this question when their belief in biblical inerrancy is challenged. No doubt those who ask the question sincerely believe that prophecy fulfillment is irrefutable proof that the Bible was divinely inspired, but in reality the question reflects a naive view of the Bible for which no credible evidence exists. The "evidence" most often cited by prophecy-fulfillment proponents will usually fall into two categories: (1) Unverifiable claims by biased biblical writers that certain events fulfilled certain prophecies. (2) "Fulfillments" of prophecies that were probably written after the fact. Anyone can successfully refute prophecy-fulfillment assertions by simply demanding clear evidence when confronted with either category of claims. In other words, if a biblicist cites a New Testament claim that such and such event fulfilled such and such prophecy, simply insist on seeing reliable nonbiblical corroboration that the alleged fulfillment event actually happened. Herod's massacre of the children in Bethlehem would be an example of an uncorroborated event. The massacre allegedly fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy (Matt. 2:18), but no one has ever found an extrabiblical source that corroborates the lone biblical reference to this event. If corroborating evidence of a fulfillment event should exist, then demand evidence that the "prophecy" of this event was undeniably written before the event. In the debate over Jeremiah's 70-year prophecy, which resumes in this issue of TSR (pp. 4-11), the demand for clear, undeniable evidence that this prophecy was made before the fact has proven to be an insurmountable hurdle for Dr. Price, who has yet to produce extrabiblical corroboration of the prophecy.

Another--and even more effective-- counterargument to use against those who claim that prophecy fulfillment proves the inspiration of the Bible requires sufficient knowledge of the Bible to show that many Old Testament prophecies obviously failed. Anyone who is willing to put the time into learning just a few of those failures will have no problems rebutting the prophecy-fulfillment claims of any biblicists he/she may encounter. The prophetic tirades of Isaiah (13-23) and Ezekiel (24-32) against the nations surrounding Israel provide a treasure house of unfulfilled prophecies. Ezekiel, for example, prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Egypt and leave it utterly desolate for a period of 40 years, during which no foot of man or beast would pass through it (chapter 20), but history recorded no such desolation of Egypt during or after the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.

Ezekiel also prophesied that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, which would never again be rebuilt (26:7-14, but Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Tyre failed to take the city, and Tyre still exists today. A curious thing about this prophecy against Tyre is that Isaiah also predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, but, whereas Ezekiel predicted that Tyre would be permanently destroyed and "nevermore have any being," Isaiah prophesied that it would be made desolate only for a period of 70 years. A comparison of these two prophecies is an easy way to show the silliness of claiming that prophecy fulfillment proves the inspiration of the Bible.

As noted in my exchanges with Matthew Hogan on Ezekiel's tirade against Tyre (September/October 1997; November/December 1997), Ezekiel clearly predicted that Tyre would be destroyed, become a bare rock and a place for spreading nets, and would be built no more forever (26:7-14, 21; 27:28; 28:19). As Ezekiel did, Isaiah in his prophecies of destruction against the nations around Israel also predicted the overthrow of Tyre. In 23:1, he said, "The burden of Tyre. Howl, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is revealed to them." The prophecy continued in typical fashion through the chapter, predicting waste and devastation, but beginning in verse 13, Isaiah indicated that the destruction of Tyre would be only temporary, not permanent:

“Look at the land of the Chaldeans! This is the people; it was not Assyria. They destined Tyre for wild animals. They erected their siege towers, they tore down her palaces, they made her a ruin. Wail, O ships of Tarshish, for your fortress is destroyed. From that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years, the lifetime of one king. At the end of seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song about the prostitute: Take a harp, go about the city, you forgotten prostitute! Make sweet melody, sing many songs, that you may be remembered. At the end of seventy years, Yahweh will visit Tyre, and she will return to her trade, and will prostitute herself with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth. Her merchandise and her wages will be dedicated to Yahweh; her profits will not be stored or hoarded, but her merchandise will supply abundant food and fine clothing for those who live in the presence of Yahweh.”

So Ezekiel predicted a permanent destruction of Tyre that would last forever, but Isaiah predicted just a temporary destruction that would last only 70 years or the estimated lifetime of one king. The fact is that neither prophecy was ever fulfilled. Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre forever, and it was never made desolate for a period of 70 years. Even when Alexander the Great succeeded in his campaign against Tyre in 332 B. C., the city was soon rebuilt (Wallace B. Fleming, The History of Tyre, Columbia University Press, p. 64) and has existed ever since. Matthew Hogan was objective enough in his consideration of the evidence to admit later that Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre had failed ("From the Mailbag," TSR, March/ April 1997, p. 12), but regardless of whether this prophecy failed or succeeded, it was impossible for both Isaiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies against Tyre to succeed. At least one of them had to fail, and so proponents of biblical prophecy fulfillment have a problem that they must explain. If the Bible was really inspired by an omniscient, omnipotent deity, why would he have directed one prophet to predict a temporary destruction of Tyre and then later direct another prophet to predict that Tyre would be destroyed “forever” and never be rebuilt? A likely answer is that neither prophet was divinely inspired; they both simply blustered in the exaggerated rhetoric typical of biblical prophets and, working independently, contradicted each other.

yummyfur

Wouldn't it have been easier to just cite Ezekial 29:17-21, where the author pretty much says Nebuchadnezzar was unsuccesfull in his seige of Tyre. I mean the author of Ezekial himself contradicts his own earlier words.

"17 Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, 18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it." 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. "

dongiovanni1976x

I tried bringing up Ezekiel 29 to someone who believes in the prophecy and they stated that that although Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy all of Tyre he did destroy the mainland area (known as Ushu or Old Tyre on the mainland) and destroyed its walls etc so therefore Ezekiel was "accurate".

He stated:
1) Ezekiel predicted that God would use Nebuchadnezzar's armies to destroy the walls of Tyre. He did
(How many walls must be broken to allow the army in? answer- at least one place in the wall.)

2) Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar's armies to break down her towers. He did.
( How many towers were built? At least four on the main land prior to 585B.C.)

3) God told Ezekiel that he would make the original mainland city of Tyre like a rock. He did.
(Tyre = rock) The Phoenicians fled by the sea during the 13 years. Later rebuilding the island
that King Hiram had started. This is why Alexander built his causeway. His armies killed and captured
over 30,000 people. Many fled by boat as far as Carthage to safety. Returning to rebuild later.

He also agreed that Tyre is the 4th largest city in Lebanon today but never explained how this fact fits into Ezekiel's prophecy that Tyre would never be rebuilt.

yummyfur

No wall was destroyed as the seige was unsuccessfull, no army entered Tyre, as there was no plunder, not even of the mainland portion, which Ezekial doesn't consider part of Tyre, but it's "daughters".

Who cares if the seige was unsuccesfull, though there is no evidence Nebi destroyed any.

This is complete ahistorical crap. The original city of Tyre was on the island and not the mainland, they never fled from Tyre as the island itself was the main part of the city, they might have partially evacuated the mainland area because it was close to the siege. There is no evidence that Nebuchadnezzar ever even took the mainland portion of the city, and Ezekial's own words that nothing was plundered, is evidence against them taking even the mainland portion.

God did not specify "mainland portion" in the prophecy, and the central and original part of Tyre is on the island, it's only whacky inerrantists who come up with this idea that the island was somehow not really part of Tyre, even to seemingly claim that it is "new" even though this is the oldest part of the city. Also Ezekial has a seperate discussion about the mainland portions, which he calls Tyre's daughters, it's clear they are not really considerd part of Tyre, per se, but are extensions of it.

Finally this portion of the prophecy I qoute below, is contradicted later by the portion of Ezekial I qouted earlier.

"And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise"

With this said, I can actually come up with an apologetic argument that easily explains all of this in Ezekial away, I should really become a Christian

The "prophesy" is actually given directly to the Tyrians, and possibly Nebi. There was no intention on these being correct, god was lying to these heathens to manipulate their actions to his ultimate goal. Since these "prophecies" weren't given to his believing people, they were not actually prophecies.

While many Christians might baulk at the concept of god being a crass lying manipulater, my guess is that the bulk of the inerrantist crowd would be thrilled with such an explaination, as it would justify such actions toward unbelievers. But if any of you steal my apologetic, you must tell them it was thought up by an atheist.

dongiovanni1976x

How do we know that no wall was destroyed during the fighting on the mainland, is that a historically verifiable fact or a valid assumption based upon the premise that the "daughter-villages" had no walls? Do we have any archaeological evidence of these mainland villages?



I don't this this is a forgone conclusion. Biblical fundamentalists are typically satisfied with any scenario that is "possible" and it seems, as far as I can tell, that the mainland was successfully attacked and likewise could have produced "some" plunder.

I completely agree

This seems clear to me as well, but not to the person I am debating with. He considers the mainland portion as "Old Tyre" because that is how Josephus referred to it. He thinks that there is Old Tyre, Island Tyre AND Daughter-towns and villages.

Richbee

Tyre was more than a city in the Old Testament times, it was a Kingdom with a King.

In any case Johnny, you and Farrell Till are refuted. (again and again, on any forum, any time and place!)

The original Kingdom of Tyre was destroyed and is no more.

The original City and it's glory was destroyed and never restored, and nor was any city rebuilt in the same place. What some might call "Tyre" today is not in any any shape or form to be compared with the great city of the Old Testament.

Quote:

The city of Tyre was one of the most prominent commercial cities in the Mediterranean in ancient times.

Today, nothing of its supremacy remains.

The Judeo-Christian Scriptures predicted the desolation of Tyre: that God in His righteous judgment would destroy this city because of its people's sins against Him. The Scriptures provide significant insight into the nature of the Hebrew God, Yahweh, His attributes, and why He is to be feared and honored.

[The Kingdom of] Tyre was once the commercial center of the ancient world, a market place of nations, and a city renown for its beauty and elegance. This city was described as a very wealthy and luxurious place where commerce revolved and business flourished. In the book of Isaiah (23:8), its merchants are called princes, and its traders are designated as "the honorable of the earth." It is apparent that these individuals held tremendous status and power, and that their city was one of the most illustrious and prestigious in the known world.

As we look into the Judeo-Christian Scriptures we find that the people of Tyre became very prideful and vain. In the prophecy of Ezekiel, the Lord says, "...your heart is lifted up, and you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god" (28:2). According to the book of Ezekiel, the purpose of God's judgment was to humble the people of Tyre and to judge their wickedness. God revealed that though man can say he is a god, he is powerless against the sting of death and the righteous judgments of God.

The book of Ezekiel is dated 593 B.C. to 570 B.C., and was written by a Hebrew prophet named Ezekiel who identifies himself as "Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi." The prophesy against the city of Tyre begins in chapter 26 of this account, where Ezekiel receives a vision from God in which He reveals the destruction of Tyre because of its people's depravity. God's purpose was to humble the people of Tyre, and pronounce His judgments on those who chose to make themselves gods in their own sight. Ezekiel declares seven prophesies in chapter 26:3-21:

Ezekiel 26:3-21

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will cause many nations to come up against you, as the sea causes its waves to come up [Prediction 1]. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock [Prediction 2]. It shall be a place for spreading nets in the midst of the sea; it shall become plunder for the nations [Prediction 3]... He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you [Prediction 4]... They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will breakdown your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water [Prediction 5]... I will make you like the top of a rock; you shall be a place for spreading of nets, and you shall never be rebuilt [Prediction 6]... I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again [Prediction 7].

This Prophesy must be compared to external historical accounts, and must be scrutinized for validity. Shortly after Ezekiel prophesied of God's judgment against Tyre, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon laid siege to Tyre. After a thirteen-year siege, Nebuchadnezzar broke down the city gates and found the city virtually abandoned. [Some] Most of Tyre's citizens moved to an island about one-half mile off the mainland, and there they fortified a city. Though mainland Tyre was destroyed in 573 B.C. by Nebuchadnezzar's army (Prediction 4), Tyre continued to flourish and remained a powerful city many years thereafter.

Source:: More

ROTFLMAO!

dongiovanni1976x

If Andrew Jackson made a prediction that New Orleans would one day fall and then 190 years later Katrina hit, would that be a significant prophecy? How many cubit inches of soil or concrete must be blown around until New Orleans at time-1 would be so different that it ceases to be the same?

Modern Tyre is the 4th largest city in Lebanon: http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/
“Tyre today is a bustling, sprawling town. It was declared a 'World Heritage' site in 1979 by a UNECO decree (Resolution 459),” (http://www.lcps-lebanon.org/pub/brev...br5.html#cases) Biblical references to it still mention how its population relied on Jewish grain as it had during Solomon’s time (Acts 12:20; see also Mark 7:24, Mark 7:31, Acts 21:3 and 7, Matt. 15:21, and Mark 3:8), Crusaders used it extensively during the Middle Ages and it even has concerns of being too urbanized and built up to this day. At what moment do you believe that this city was destroyed, never to be rebuilt again?

Spanky

I hope your good at this Richbee! 'Cause you just opened a can of worms.



Didn't we just have a 50 page thread on Tyre?
ETA: found it http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=141118
24 Pages!

Johnny Skeptic

Richbee is quite good at embarrassing himself. Historically, kingdoms rising and falling has been the rule, not the exception. In addition, many ancient cities were never rebuilt. Other than "the Bible says so," Richbee does not have any evidence at all that the Tyre prophecy was written before the events, and that the version of the prophecy that we have today is the same as the original version. It is interesting to note that by the time that God finally got even with the island settlement when Alexander defeated it, the inhabitants against whom the prophecy had been made against had been dead for centuries.

dongiovanni1976x

I think there is "sufficient" evidence to assume that Ezekiel made this prediction during the 13 year siege of Tyre. I think the greatest problem facing a Biblical inerrantist with regards to this prophecy is what was mentioned earlier by yummyfur that Ezekiel himself admitted that the siege failed (chap 29 v. 17) and that Tyre remained for Alexander the great to humble it centuries later. But even beyond that the Bible mentions Tyre numerous times even after Alexander was long since dead and there is plenty of evidence that it has been inhabited to this day- contrary to the prediction that all of its inhabitants would be sent to the "pit" (v. 20) and the city would not only never be "rebuilt" (v. 14) but never even found (v. 21) again.