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Old 06-15-2011, 08:02 AM   #51
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Dog-On:

You could have made a more honest claim had you said that almost the entire Gospel of Mark could have arguably been sourced from the Septuagint. That would at least been honest. To claim as a fact that Mark was sourced from the Septuagint is the kind of stretch that is so common in myther arguments.

Steve
Please note that accusations of dishonesty violate the rules here, as do group insults.

In addition, the scholarly research that shows the numerous links between the Septuagint and Mark's narrative has been done by historicists.
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:15 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by JonA View Post
In the other thread, the point was brought up that there was no oral tradition that went into the gospels.

Seeing someone who holds this view make an honest attempt at presenting their position would be a great start.

Jon
Almost the entire Gospel of Mark is sourced from the Septuagint. You tell me which part of Mark you believe comes from oral tradition and we can see how that goes.
Identifying oral traditions is, in part, an exclusionary process. Nevertheless, let's grab a random part of the gospel to focus on: the trial and Crucifixion.

We can start with Peter's denial:

Quote:
Mark 14:66–72 (NRSV):

While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant-girls of the high priest came by. When she saw Peter warming himself, she stared at him and said, 'You also were with Jesus, the man from Nazareth.' But he denied it, saying, 'I do not know or understand what you are talking about.' And he went out into the forecourt. Then the cock crowed. And the servant-girl, on seeing him, began again to say to the bystanders, 'This man is one of them.' But again he denied it. Then after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, 'Certainly you are one of them; for you are a Galilean.' But he began to curse, and he swore an oath, 'I do not know this man you are talking about.' At that moment the cock crowed for the second time. Then Peter remembered that Jesus had said to him, 'Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.' And he broke down and wept.
After addressing this section, we can move on to the next section.

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Old 06-15-2011, 08:50 AM   #53
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Why do you think this is oral tradition? It is clearly part of the author of Mark's polemic against the apostles. He depicts them as dull witted, unable to understand what Jesus says.

You can read more here

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Paul makes no mention of this event in his epistles, despite his clashes with Peter. As Weeden (2001) notes:

"In fact Paul makes no explicit reference or even the slightest allusive hint of any disaffection upon the part of any one in the inner-circle of Jesus' followers."

"Likewise, there is no reference or allusion to a Petrine denial in any other pre-Synoptic tradition. Not a trace of it can be found in Q. And nothing in the Gospel of Thomas would lead one to believe that any of the tradition(s) behind that Gospel knew of Peter denying Jesus. Had the author of Thomas known of the denial, he could have used it as sufficient cause alone for the elevation of Thomas over Peter in GTh. 13. For in that saying it is clear that what is at stake is that the author is trying to prove that Thomas, rather than Peter or Matthew, is Jesus' most trusted confidant and most favored disciple."

"To pursue support for my position further: if such a Petrine denial is historical, then I find it quite strange that nowhere in the NT is there any reference to Peter ever offering a *mea culpa* and receiving forgiveness for his denial. It is particularly striking that in none of the resurrection-appearance stories is there any suggestion that Peter offers or has offered a *mea culpa* and is forgiven by the risen Jesus."
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:25 AM   #54
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Perhaps we might rescue this thread with some discussion of how much of the Gospels content and angelogical and dualistic ideas are drawn from The Book of Enoch, Maccabees and other non-canonical literature. vis Matthew 22:25-30 >
Shesh,

Since you mentioned 1 Enoch specifically, here is a slightly reformated version of a chapter in R H Charle's translation of 1 Enoch on possible influences on the NT:

§ 19. The Influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament. The influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphal books taken together. The evidence for this conclusion may for the sake of convenience be arranged under two heads. (A) A series of passages of the New Testament which either in phraseology or idea directly depend on or are illustrative of passages in 1 Enoch. (B) Doctrines in 1 Enoch which had an undoubted share in moulding the corresponding New Testament doctrines.

(A) I quote from the Revised Version when a more accurate rendering is desirable.

(a) We will begin with the General Epistles.

New Testament 1 Enoch
St. Jude 4 ‘ Denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.’ 48:10 'Denied the Lord of Spirits and His anointed'. Cf. 38:2 41:2.
6 ' The angels which left their own abode ' 12:4 'the Watchers . . . who have left the high heaven, &c.'
6 ' reserved . . . great day '- 10:4-6, 11, 12 ' Bind . . . darkness . . . judgement'
13 ' Wandering stars '. 18:15 21:2, 3, 6.
14 ' The seventh from Adam '. 60:8 ' The seventh from Adam '.
14, 15 A direct quotation from 1:9. Cf. 5:4 27:2.
1 St. Peter 3:19, 20. 10:4,5, 12, 13 19:1 20:1.
2 St. Peter 2:4. 10:4-6, 12, 13 12:5 13:2
3:13 'A new heaven and a new earth '. 45:4, 5 72:1 91:16
1 St. John 1:7 ' Walk in the light ' 92:4 ' The righteous . . . shall walk in eternal light'.
[The contrast between light and darkness in St. John's Epistles …] [Contrast repeatedly enforced in 1 Enoch. See 1 Enoch 38:4 (note)]
2:1 ' Jesus Christ the righteous '. 53:6 'The Righteous and Elect One'.
2:8 ' The darkness is past and the true light already shineth' 58:5 ' It has become bright as the sun upon earth, and the darkness is past'.
2:15 ' Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world '. 108:8 ' loved . . . nor any of the good things which are in the world'. Cf. 48:7.
3:2 ' We shall be like Him '. 90:37, 38
St. James 1:8 ' Double-minded man '. 91:4 'A double heart '. See note.
5:1-6 Woes against the rich. 94:8-11; also 46:7 63:10 96:4-8 97:8-10.

(b) Book of Revelation.—The writer or writers of this book are steeped in Jewish apocalyptic literature.

New Testament 1 Enoch
Rev. 1:4 ' Seven spirits which are before His throne'. Cf. 4:5; also ' the seven angels ' 8:2 90:21 'those men the seven first white ones '. Cf. Tobit 12:15.
2:7 ‘ To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life': also 22:2, 14 ('the right to the tree of life ') " 19 25:4-6 Only the elect, the righteous and holy, in the Messianic kingdom are allowed, to eat of the tree of life.
3:1 ' Clothed in white raiment '. 90:31 ' Clothed in white '.
3:10 'Them that dwell upon the earth '. [This phrase has always a bad sense in Revelation with the exception of 14'. Cf. 6:10 8:13 11:10 13:8, 14 17:8, and that in this respect Revelation follows the use of this phrase in the Noachic interpolations.] 37:5 'Those that dwell on earth '. [Re Noachic interpolations, see 1 En. 37:5 (note).]
3:12 ‘ The New Jerusalem '. 90:29 'A new house '.
3:17 ' I am rich and increased with goods '. 97:8 ' We have become rich with riches and have possessions, &c.'
3:20 'I will come unto him and sup with him '. 62:14 ' and with that Son of Man shall they (the righteous) eat, and lie down, and rise up for ever and ever '.
3:21 ' Sit with Me on My throne '. Cf. 20*. 108:12 'I will seat each on the throne of his honour'.
4:6' ' Round about the throne were four living creatures '. 40:2 ' On the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences'.
4:8 ' they rest not . , . saying '. 39:13 ' who sleep not . . . and say '.
5:11. 14:22 4:01 71:8.
6:10 'How long, Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth ?' 47:2 ' that the prayer of the righteous may not be in vain before the Lord of Spirits, That judgement may be done unto them. And that they may not have to suffer for ever '. Cf 97:3-5 99:3, 16 104:3 : also 22:5-7 where the soul of a righteous man in Hades prays for vengeance.
6:15, 16 Compare the fear of ' the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong' when they see ' the face of him that sitteth on the throne '. 62:3, 5 ' the kings, and the mighty, and the exalted . . . shall be terrified. And pain shall seize them, When they see that Son of Man Sitting on the throne of his glory '.
7:1 The four angels of the winds. 69:22 'The spirits ... of the winds '.
7:15 ' He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them '. 45:4' I will cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them '.
7:17 ' Shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life '- 48:1 ' fountain of righteousness . . . fountains of wisdom '.
8:3, 4 Angel with golden censer of incense offers it with the prayers of the saints before God. In 5:8 the elders do so also. This intercession of the angels is found frequently in 1 Enoch, 9:1-3, 11 15:2 40:7 47:2 99:3.
9:1 ' I saw a star from heaven fallen unto the earth' 86:1 ‘ And I saw . . . and behold a star fell from heaven '.
9:14-15. 66:1.
20 ' Repented not of the works of their hands that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood '. 99:7 ' who worship stones and grave images of gold, and silver, and wood, (and stone) and clay, and those who worship impure spirits and demons'.
10:5-7. 16:1.
12:10 ' The accuser of our brethren is cast down ' 40:7 ' fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come . . . to accuse them who dwell on the earth '.
13:14 'Deceiveth them that dwell on the earth '. 54:6 ' Leading astray those who dwell on the earth '. Cf. 67:7.
14:9, 10 The worshippers of the beast are to be ' tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the lamb '. 48:9 The unrighteous 'burn before the face of the holy . . . sink before the face of the righteous'.
14:10 ' Holy angels '. passim : e. g. 71:1.
14:13 ' Blessed are the dead, &c.' 81:4.
14:20 ' Blood came out of the winepress even unto the horses' bridles '. 100:3 ' The horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners'.
16:5 'Angel of the waters'. 60:16 ' the spirit of the sea '.
17:14 ' Lord of lords and King of kings '. 9:4 ' Lord of lords . . . King of kings '.
20:12 ' And the books were opened' and ' another book was opened which is the book of life '. 90:20 ' took the sealed books and opened those books '. 47:3 ' The books of the living '.
13 'The sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them ' 51:1 ' in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it, and Sheol also shall give back that which it has received, and hell shall give back that which it owes '. Cf. 61:5.
20:11-15. The last judgement is held after the temporary Messianic kingdom (20:4, 5), just as in 1 En. 1 En. 91-104. There is, however, no resurrection in the temporary Messianic kingdom of 1 Enoch as there is in Revelation.
20:15 ' Cast into the lake of fire '. 90:26 ' Cast into this fiery abyss '.
21:1, 2. We have here a new heaven and a new earth, and a new Jerusalem coming down from heaven : yet in 22:14, 15 all classes of sinners are iaid to be without the gates of the city. But if there were a, new earth this would be impossible, This contradiction may have arisen from combining the divergent Messianic conceptions which appear in 1 Enoch. Cf. 45:4, 5 90:29.
22:3 ‘no more curse’ 25:6 ‘ no sorrow or plague or torment or calamity’.

(c) We shall next deal with the Epistles of St. Paul. This Apostle, as we know, borrowed both phraseology and ideas from many quarters: from the Greek poets; from the apocryphal writings, as the Book of Wisdom ; from the lost Revelation of Elias—1 Cor. 2:9 according to Origen, and Eph. 5:14 according to Epiphanius. We shall find that he was well acquainted with and used 1 Enoch.

New Testament 1 Enoch
Rom. 8:34 'Neither angels, nor principalities, nor powers ' 61:10 'angels of power and . . . angels of principalities '.
9:5 ' God blessed for ever '. 77:1 ' He who is blessed for ever '.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Justified in the name of the Lord Jesus'. 48:7 'in his (i.e. the Messiah's) name they are saved‘.
1 Cor. 11:10. Tertullian, C. Marc. v. 8 ; de Virg. Veland. 7, explains this verse through a reference to the bad angels spoken of in 1 Enoch who would be incited to wantonness by unveiled women.
2 Cor. 4:6 ' To give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ ' 38:4 ' The Lord of Spirits has caused His light to appear on the face of the holy, righteous, and elect '.
5:2-4. 62:15-16.
11:31 'He who is blessed for ever'. 77:1 ' He who is blessed for ever '.
Gal. 1:4' This present evil world '. 48:7 ' this world of unrighteousness'.
Eph. 1:21 ' Above all principality and power '. 61:10 'angels of power and . . . angels of principalities '.
9 ' According to His good pleasure'. 49:4 ' according to His good pleasure'.
5:8 ' Children of light.' 108:11 ‘the generation of light '.
Phil. 2:10 ' At the name of Jesus every knee should bow '. 48:5 ' shall fall down and worship before Him ' (i.e. the Messiah).
Col. 1:16 'Principalities and powers '. 61:10 ‘. angels of powers and . . . angels of principalities '.
2:3' In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge'. 46:3 ' the Son of man . . . who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden '.
1 Thess. 5:3 'Then sudden destruction Cometh upon them as upon a woman with child '. 62:4 ' Then shall pain come upon them as on a woman in travail'. Both these passages refer to the sudden appearing of the Messiah.
5:5 ' Sons of light '- 108:11 ' the generation of light '.
2 Thess. 1:7 ' The angels of His power'. 61:10 ‘ The angels of power '.
1 Tim. 1:9 ' Law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless ', &c. 93:4 'a law shall the sinners '. be made for
1:15 ‘ Worthy of all acceptation ' (cf. 49). 94:1 ' worthy of acceptation '.
5:21 ' The elect angels '. 39:1 * elect and holy children . . . from the high heaven '.
61:15 ' King of Kings and Lord of Lords '. 9:4 ' Lord of Lords . . King of Kings '.
6:16 ' Dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen '. 14:21 ‘ None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason of the magnificence and glory '-

(d) Epistle to the Hebrews. This Epistle was possibly written by Barnabas. As we have seen above (p. Ixxxi) this writer [i.e.” Barnabas”] cites 1 Enoch as Scripture in the Epistle which goes by his name.

New Testament 1 Enoch
Hebrews 4:13 ' There is no creature that is not manifest in His sight : but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do'. 9:5 ' all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee '.
11:5 ' Enoch was translated . . . for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God '. The parallel passage must, it seems, depend on the Enoch book where Enoch is always accounted an example of righteousness and therefore translated. Cf. 15:1 &c. In Sirach 44:16 Enoch is translated indeed, but is cited as an example of repentance. Philo, De Abrahamo, speaks of the former evil life of Enoch.
11:10 ‘ The city which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God' (cf. 13:14*). 90:29 ‘ God Himself builds the New Jerusalem.
12:9 'Father of spirits '. ' Lord of Spirits ', 37:2 and passim in Parables.
12:22 ' The heavenly Jerusalem '. 90:29.

(e) Acts of the Apostles.

New Testament 1 Enoch
3:14 'The Righteous One', i.e. Christ. Cf. also 7:52 22:14. 53:6 ' the Righteous and Elect One ' (i. e. the Messiah).
4:12 ‘ There is none other name under heaven . . . whereby we must be saved '. 48:7 ' in His (i.e. the Messiah's) name they are saved '.
10:4 ' Thy prayers . . . are gone up for a memorial before God '. 99:3 'raise your prayers as a memorial . . . before the Most High '.
17:31 ' He will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He hath ordained '. 41:9 'He appoints a judge for them all and he judges them all before Him '.

(f) The Gospels.

New Testament 1 Enoch
St. John 2:16 The temple is called ' God's house ', but owing to sin of Israel ' your house ', i.e. merely house of Israel in St. Luke 13:35 and parallels. 89:51 Temple = ' house ' of ' the Lord of the sheep'. But in 89:56 owing to sin of Israel it is said ' He forsook that their house '.
5:22 ' He hath committed all judgement unto the Son ' 69:27' ' the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man '
5:27 ' He gave him authority to execute judgement because he is the Son of Man ".
8:12 48:4
12:36 'Sons of light' 108:11 'the generation of light '-
14:2 ' Many mansions '. 39:4 ' dwelling-places of the holy and the resting-place of the righteous '- Cf.39:7 48:1, &c.
St. Luke 1:52 ' He hath put down princes from their thrones '. 46:4 ' shall *raise up* (Read 'put down') the kings . . . from their seats '-
9:35 ' This is My Son, the Elect One '. So Greek ὁ ἐκλελεγμένος. 40:5 'the Elect One', i.e. the Messiah. Cf. 45:3, 4 ('Mine Elect One ') ; 49:2, 4, &c.
13:35 See on St. John 2:16.
16:8 'Sons of the light'. 108:11 ‘the generation of light '.
16:9 'Mammon of unrighteousness'. 63:10 ' unrighteous gains '.
18:7 'Shall not God avenge His elect which cry to Him day and night, and He is longsuffering over them '. Cf.2 Pet. 3:9 ; Sir. 32;18. 47:1, 2 ‘the prayer of the righteous . . . that judgement may be done unto them and that they may not have to suffer for ever '.
21:8 ' 'Your redemption draweth nigh '. 51:2 ' the day has drawn nigh that they should be saved '
23:35 'The Christ of God, the Elect One ', ὁ ἐκλεκτός 40:5 ‘ The Elect One '.
St. Matthew 5:22, 29, 30 10:28 where Gehenna is the place of final punishment. 27:2 90:26, 27 -where Gehenna first definitely appears as hell.
8:20. 16:1.
13:42 98:3.
19:28 ' When the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory '. 62:5 ' When they see that Son of Man sitting on the throne of his glory’
19:28 ' Ye also shall sit on twelve thrones ' 108:12 'I will seat each on the . throne of his honour '.
19:29 ' Inherit eternal life '. 40:9 ' inherit eternal life’
21:13 23:38. See St. John 2:16. 89:56 + 89:54.
25:41 ' Prepared for the devil and his angels 54:4, 5 'chains . . . prepared for ' the hosts of Azazel'.
26:24 'It had been good for that man if he had not been born '. 38:2 ' It had been good for them if they had not been born '.
28:18 'All authority hath been given to Me in heaven and on earth '. 62:6 ' (the Son of man) who rules over all '.
St. Mark 11:17. See St. John 2:6. 89:54.

When attempting to make sense of these passages in 1 Enoch, keep in mind that what we call 1 Enoch is the Ethiopic translation of five separate Enoch books.

Section 1, chapters 1-36 (the most ancient) are the Book of Watchers, and was found among the DSS.

Section 2, chapters 37-71 are the "Parables" (aka "Similitudes") of Enoch, which has the most striking parallels to Christian beliefs about Jesus Christ but is not found among the DSS, meaning it could have been influenced by Christian Christ dogma.

Section 3, chapters 72-82, is the Book of heavenly Luminaries. This book is centered on a Lunar calendar in Ethiopic Enoch, but on a 364day "Solar" calendar in the DSS version. This suggests that the version in 1 Enoch has been reworked to fit a lunar calendar.

Section 4, chapters 83-90, The Book of Dream Visions.

Section 5, chapters 91-104, A hodge podge of different Enoch fragments including a Testament, an Apocalypse of Weeks, and Woes addressed to sinners, plus fragments of a Noahchic book.

DCH
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:48 AM   #55
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Why do you think this is oral tradition? It is clearly part of the author of Mark's polemic against the apostles. He depicts them as dull witted, unable to understand what Jesus says.

You can read more here

Quote:
Paul makes no mention of this event in his epistles, despite his clashes with Peter. As Weeden (2001) notes:

"In fact Paul makes no explicit reference or even the slightest allusive hint of any disaffection upon the part of any one in the inner-circle of Jesus' followers."

"Likewise, there is no reference or allusion to a Petrine denial in any other pre-Synoptic tradition. Not a trace of it can be found in Q. And nothing in the Gospel of Thomas would lead one to believe that any of the tradition(s) behind that Gospel knew of Peter denying Jesus. Had the author of Thomas known of the denial, he could have used it as sufficient cause alone for the elevation of Thomas over Peter in GTh. 13. For in that saying it is clear that what is at stake is that the author is trying to prove that Thomas, rather than Peter or Matthew, is Jesus' most trusted confidant and most favored disciple."

"To pursue support for my position further: if such a Petrine denial is historical, then I find it quite strange that nowhere in the NT is there any reference to Peter ever offering a *mea culpa* and receiving forgiveness for his denial. It is particularly striking that in none of the resurrection-appearance stories is there any suggestion that Peter offers or has offered a *mea culpa* and is forgiven by the risen Jesus."
Well, I'm kind of interested to see if dog-on or anyone else can present some sort of written source for this story. While we wait for that, though, I'll add this to what you've said:

Quote:
Alan Watson in Jesus: A Profile (1998):

My second example is Peter's denial of Jesus. David Daube has observed that a Jew, questioned by a Gentile, must not deny his Jewishness even at the risk of his life. Daube points out that the rabbis made two basic distinctions: first, between evasion and a direct no, and second, between a private and a public denial. Evasion is less serious than a direct no. A private denial is not as bad as a public denial. This is precisely the pattern that is found in Mark16.66ff. Peter was warming himself in the courtyard below when a servant girl of the high priest, looking at him, said, "You also were with Jesus of Nazareth" (Mark 14.67). Peter responded, "I neither know nor understand what you are saying" (14.68). The reply is a denial in private and an evasion. Peter went outside to the forecourt. The maid saw him again and said to bystanders, "This man is one of them" (14.69). Peter made the same denial (the Greek verb ἀρνέομαι, to deny, is used in both verses), so again an evasion, but this time in public. After all, the maid made the accusation to bystanders. Subsequently, the bystanders said that he was surely one of them (14.70). Peter began to curse and swear, "I do not know of the man of whom you speak" (14.71). This is a direct no, and it is made in public. Daube hesitates to claim that Mark is historically accurate. So would I, and I would rather feel that Mark has here a deliberate reminiscence of the rabbinic structure with a possible purpose. (p. 5)
This source seems to argue that, the structure of the denial at least, has been fabricated by Mark to mimic certain known aspects of Jewish teaching/tradition.

Jon
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:08 AM   #56
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....This source seems to argue that, the structure of the denial at least, has been fabricated by Mark to mimic certain known aspects of Jewish teaching/tradition....
So why is gMark an historical account in the first place and not just a story? What is the Historical source for Jesus walking on the water, but not only walking on water, BUT was WITNESSED by the disciples?

gMark is NOT an historical account or else people would have IDENTIFIED the fiction in the story.

What is the source for the Transfiguration? The author did NOT just claim Jesus Transfigured but that the Disciples Peter, James and John did ACTUALLY witness the Transfiguration and SAW the Resurrected Moses and Elijah.

It is CLEAR we have ACTUAL WRITTEN stories in gMark that MUST have been ONLY BELIEVED and could NOT have ACTUALLY happened.

There is NO credible external non-apologetic source of antiquity that can CONTRADICT the THEORY that gMark is about INVENTIONS of a character called Jesus Christ.
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:45 PM   #57
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....This source seems to argue that, the structure of the denial at least, has been fabricated by Mark to mimic certain known aspects of Jewish teaching/tradition....
So why is gMark an historical account in the first place and not just a story?
Not sure. You might have better luck asking that to someone who thinks that it's an historical account.

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Old 06-16-2011, 06:18 AM   #58
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In the other thread, the point was brought up that there was no oral tradition that went into the gospels.

Seeing someone who holds this view make an honest attempt at presenting their position would be a great start.
I doubt that there was any oral tradition. Whether I could present that position honestly depends on what it would take to convince you that I was being honest. However, before I attempt to convince you of my honesty, I'll need a very good reason for thinking you are justified in not presupposing it.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:03 AM   #59
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In the other thread, the point was brought up that there was no oral tradition that went into the gospels.

Seeing someone who holds this view make an honest attempt at presenting their position would be a great start.
I doubt that there was any oral tradition. Whether I could present that position honestly depends on what it would take to convince you that I was being honest. However, before I attempt to convince you of my honesty, I'll need a very good reason for thinking you are justified in not presupposing it.
Presupposing what?

Feel free to present your position; I see no reason to doubt your honesty.

Lay out your argument; I'm sure we can all agree to judge it on its own merits.

Jon
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:33 PM   #60
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Almost the entire Gospel of Mark is sourced from the Septuagint. You tell me which part of Mark you believe comes from oral tradition and we can see how that goes.
Identifying oral traditions is, in part, an exclusionary process. Nevertheless, let's grab a random part of the gospel to focus on: the trial and Crucifixion.

We can start with Peter's denial:

Quote:
Mark 14:66–72 (NRSV):

While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant-girls of the high priest came by. When she saw Peter warming himself, she stared at him and said, 'You also were with Jesus, the man from Nazareth.' But he denied it, saying, 'I do not know or understand what you are talking about.' And he went out into the forecourt. Then the cock crowed. And the servant-girl, on seeing him, began again to say to the bystanders, 'This man is one of them.' But again he denied it. Then after a little while the bystanders again said to Peter, 'Certainly you are one of them; for you are a Galilean.' But he began to curse, and he swore an oath, 'I do not know this man you are talking about.' At that moment the cock crowed for the second time. Then Peter remembered that Jesus had said to him, 'Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.' And he broke down and wept.
After addressing this section, we can move on to the next section.

Jon
Jon, there is a particular ancient orthodox tradition that seems to be reflected in this scene. Let me know if you can identify it...
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