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Old 12-25-2011, 09:30 PM   #101
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Why haven't they undergone carbon dating??
You're guess is as good as my guess. Maybe the Oxford Oxyrynchus Dept and the Oxford C14 Lab are not on speaking terms. (People use the IGNORE function in this forum as well)
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Old 12-25-2011, 11:40 PM   #102
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In any event, do the dating that find fragments dated in the second century carry with them sufficient margins of error or do researchers approach it with the expectations that fragments HAD TO HAVE. been written in the second century which is closest to the first century when the church says the originals had to have been written??

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Why haven't they undergone carbon dating??
You're guess is as good as my guess. Maybe the Oxford Oxyrynchus Dept and the Oxford C14 Lab are not on speaking terms. (People use the IGNORE function in this forum as well)
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Old 12-26-2011, 12:37 AM   #103
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Up to now, Carbon 14 dating has involved destroying part of the manuscript.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:23 AM   #104
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Up to now, Carbon 14 dating has involved destroying part of the manuscript.
Yes but, not much material is required to perform the test and many of the papyri have alot of vacant space around the scribal handwriting. Even some which are almost completely covered in writing have loose edges and vacant material that could be "harvested". An example P.Oxy. 53

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Old 12-26-2011, 03:30 AM   #105
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In any event, do the dating that find fragments dated in the second century carry with them sufficient margins of error or do researchers approach it with the expectations that fragments HAD TO HAVE. been written in the second century which is closest to the first century when the church says the originals had to have been written??
From this article:

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Originally Posted by History Hunters International

We have been in error, accepting the view of biblical scholarship and Christian tradition which dates the canonical gospels to the early period of the Roman Empire.

This error is personally mortifying, for I recognised and declared long ago the danger inherent in this approach. This is the sort of nonsense we accepted:
Even within the period that runs from c. A.D. 100-300 it is possible for paleographers to be more specific on the relative date of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament. For about sixty years now a tiny papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John has been the oldest “manuscript” of the New Testament. This manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars. (Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts by Peter van Minnen)
Use of the terms “fact” and “proved” is wrong. The early fragments of the New Testament do not have a secure, archaeological context and none have been radiocarbon-dated, relying instead on paleography. Here is better thinking:
What emerges from this survey is nothing surprising to papyrologists: paleography is not the most effective method for dating texts, particularly those written in a literary hand. Roberts himself noted this point in his edition of P52. The real problem is the way scholars of the New Testament have used and abused papyrological evidence. I have not radically revised Roberts’s work. I have not provided any third-century documentary papyri that are absolute “dead ringers” for the handwriting of P52, and even had I done so, that would not force us to date P52 at some exact point in the third century. Paleographic evidence does not work that way. What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. Thus, P52 cannot be used as evidence to silence other debates about the existence (or non-existence) of the Gospel of John in the first half of the second century. Only a papyrus containing an explicit date or one found in a clear archaeological stratigraphic context could do the work scholars want P52 to do. As it stands now, the papyrological evidence should take a second place to other forms of evidence in addressing debates about the dating of the Fourth Gospel. (“The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel” by Brent Nongbri, Harvard Theological Review 98:23-52, 2005.)
The non-canonical Gospel of Judas has been radiocarbon dated to 280 CE +/- 60 years and I now declare that the canonical gospels in their near-final form likely belong to this period.


Late Roman marble copy of the Kriophoros of Kalamis (Museo Barracco, Rome)
Here is how I reached this position:
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:36 AM   #106
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Why haven't they undergone carbon dating??
Carbon dating cannot tell you when anything was written except insofar as it provides an earliest possible date. If I find something today that looks like an ancient papyrus document, it could have been produced last week for all that carbon dating could tell me, even if it proves that the papyrus was made sometime around 100 CE.
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Old 12-26-2011, 06:26 AM   #107
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Why haven't they undergone carbon dating??
No doubt the librarians where the mss are kept are politically correct, and seek to maintain as minimal a "carbon footprint" as possible. :constern01:

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Old 12-26-2011, 08:05 AM   #108
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IF we are left in a situation where there is no evidence that all the NT texts or all the epistles were written by one conspiratorial Roman cabal, we are still left asking the question if the epistles were actually written to communities, HOW did they know to retain the letters in pristine condition for posterity when even theological tracts of the faith written by theologians disappeared without a trace (if someone like Eusebius is telling the truth)??
IF they didn't know they had to retain the letters, and the letters were sent to many different locations, then without a central authority, HOW were they collected together (when even full books couldn't survive, not to speak of relatively short letters) especially when they did not appear on the scene for a long time after they were supposedly written?!
I accept that they were not written in either the first or second centuries, and perhaps not even in the third. HOWEVER, they do represent varieties of a non-historical Christ sect NOT reflected in the gospels that would have existed PRIOR to any letters being written, with no indication HOW FAR BACK the non-historical Jesus sect existed before Nicaea.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:01 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Duvduv View Post
Why haven't they undergone carbon dating??
Carbon dating cannot tell you when anything was written except insofar as it provides an earliest possible date. If I find something today that looks like an ancient papyrus document, it could have been produced last week for all that carbon dating could tell me, even if it proves that the papyrus was made sometime around 100 CE.
Paleography does NOT tell you when anything was actually written--it provides a range of possible dates.

Paleography essentially examines writing style, type of base material and form of the medium used.

In effect, if a blank sheet of papyrus from the 1st century was found and a someone wrote in a 1st century style today it may be dated by Paleography to the 1st century when it was written today or last week.

Radiocarbon dating has ONE Major advantage over Paleography--it tends to eliminate bias or subjectivity.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:31 PM   #110
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Paleography does NOT tell you when anything was actually written--it provides a range of possible dates.
C14 dating does the same. There are standard deviations and margins of error in all C14 date ranges. It is also not uncommon to see analyses by non-specialists focus in on aberrant measurements or redo statistical analyses until more helpful measurements are found. Even when everything is done correctly, you could very, very easily use radiocarbon dating to get a range of 75 or 100 years for a document from around the turn of the era.

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Originally Posted by aa5874 View Post
Paleography essentially examines writing style, type of base material and form of the medium used.

In effect, if a blank sheet of papyrus from the 1st century was found and a someone wrote in a 1st century style today it may be dated by Paleography to the 1st century when it was written today or last week.
It would have to be a pretty darn good forgery to fool more experienced paleographers. In addition to the incredible skill that would be required to make the style not appear forced, it would also be phenomenally difficult to replicate the visible effects of two millennia of aging and avoid the visible effects of writing today on a 2000 year old piece of papyrus or leather.

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Radiocarbon dating has ONE Major advantage over Paleography--it tends to eliminate bias or subjectivity.
To a moderate degree.
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