Minimalist

Certainly not confrontational at all. The logistics issue was spot on.

You know the Romans were not averse to using slave labor, though?

We also know that Vespasian sent 6,000 captured jewish slaves from his defeat of Josehus' army as a "gift" to Nero to work on his attempt to dig a canal through the Isthmus of Corinth. So there was precedent for the practice and in the aftermath of the capture of Jerusalem jewish slaves would have been a glut on the market.

I agree that the Romans had mopped up resistance from outside but Roman doctrine called for camps to be guarded in 3 hour watches with the guards replaced at the end of the watch. For Silva to have deviated from this practice in the face of the enemy, especially at night, would have been negligent. With the defenders looking down from the heights such a dereliction of duty would have been been spotted. I submit that he was not negligent.

outhouse

What really needs to be studied here with Masada is not slaves being used for the ramp. That is all to possible. Its still neither here, nor there.

If the jews trapped within its walls had all starved to death, and the Romans reach them and they are all dead. Would legends surface of suicide?

DCHindley

That would depend on whether they all had their throats cut or they were skin and bone corpses, or both, when the Romans broached the gates.

If their throats were cut (by the others according to lot) then suicide.

If they were also shriveled up with hunger, then they committed suicide because they did not have the strength to resist.

If they had circumvilated the mesa so no supplies could reach the defenders, and then began a 3 month rampart construction project, dying of hunger was inevitable.

If they were simply shriveled corpses with no sign of obvious injury, they died from hunger.

If, as archeology tells, the food stores were not torched like the palace and administrative buildings, then it would be most likely that they had decided to commit suicide even though they had food enough for a while still left.

DCH

Minimalist

Anyone ever notice the similarities between Josephus' tales of the endings of the sieges of Masada and Jotapata?

Twice Told Tales?

semiopen

The slaves are part of the myth. Aside from that the issue is interesting because of the logistical issues, I'm not aware of a case of another relatively trivial myth detail being so successfully busted.

It turns out my daughter was also told the Jewish slaves part when she visited Masada when she was in Birthright Israel. She is serene in her belief that that is exactly what happened.

I wonder if she and Anna Baltzer were swtched at birth

Finkelstein Seen As Moderate On Far-Left Panel

Of course, the ten year difference in their ages makes that theory dubious.

Anyway, I find bringing in Jewish slaves when there were none gratuitously annoying.

Duvduv

Whatever or whoever was on Masada when the Romans built the ramp, there has not been any significant archeological findings about it. So one can only wonder why they would have ever bothered with a ramp for thousands of troops when they could have just as easily waited them out and gone up the regular way. There must have been some great need which doesn't correspond to a few hundred Jews.

semiopen

The siege ramp wasn't such a big deal because it was constructed (and the whole business over with) in as little as four weeks but more likely about twice that long.

The mythology goes on about a several year siege but this is clearly not true.

Cities of Ancient Israel

As outhouse will testify this is enough enough to keep 1000 people happier than pigs in shit for a very long time.

For being an unassailable fortress in the middle of nowhere it sure seemed to get successfully assailed quite a bit.

More likely last, but perhaps they were for something else.

Maybe not the most accurate reference but the supply situation is probably accurate... never trust anyone who says the defenders were zealots.

Minimalist

No fortress is unassailable if the guards are asleep.

outhouse

Im not sure we can know one way or the other.

Had there been slaves helping, building the ramp as required. We know these Zealots would have murdered them in a blink of a eye, after their previous seige killing 700.

While the desert did perserve many aspects over the last 2000 years, im not sure Jewish slaves would have left much to detect.

What sources do you have there were no slaves?

outhouse

Why?

Zealot is a general term the Romans used to describe people against the oppression levied upon them.

Most hardworking Jews fit that bill.


Two of the most understudied groups in the first century are Zealots. the second God-fearers.