bacht

Hi, new member, first thread. I was introduced to this forum through Earl Doherty's Jesus Puzzle site. I find his thesis about the mythic Jesus convincing, but I'm an amateur, no knowledge of ancient languages etc.

I now place little historical value on the Gospels and Acts, though some useful info may be gleaned from them. I prefer to search for the roots of Christianity in the early epistles, such as can be verified. I'm willing to accept historicity for apostles such as Peter and Paul. If Doherty is correct, these early leaders may have been visionaries of the spiritual Christ (cf 2 Peter, 1 Corinthians).

Okay, main subject: James, the "brother of the Lord", appears to have been the leader of the Christian group in Judea. (I prefer to take this title as a token of respect from the Jewish Christians).

Is "James the Just" another designation for the same person?
Was this person murdered as described by Josephus?
Was James the son of Zebedee a fictional character?
[I assume the epistle of James is pseudepigraphical]

thanks in advance

Toto

Welcome to IIDB. This is a frequent question here. One recent thread is here and you can find more using the search function.

My own opinion is that the James described in Josephus was not a Christian, but was assimilated by later Christians into their history. James the son of Zebedee was a fictional character, and there was no biological brother of Jesus named James. But you will find a variety of opinions here.

bacht

Thanks. I agree with all your points. The Luke thread is interesting enough, but I put little faith in any of the Gospel writers' versions of history.

As a recovering Evangelical I'm trying to get my head around the mythicist version of NT history. I think it's just as interesting as the orthodox story.

I'm imagining a messianic group of quietists poring over scripture, similar to the Essenes in the sense of "waiting on the Lord", and contrasted with the Zealots who sought to force a political turnover. These literate and peaceful Jewish Christians seem to have been just the sort of moderates that were drowned out in the crazy days leading up to the Revolt :frown:

Doug Shaver

As already noted, we have lots of threads about James. I'll just throw out my own quick answers without elaboration.

That title seems to have been applied to him retroactively in later traditions about the church's origins. The reference was to the same person, but there is no contemporary evidence that he was called "the Just" in his own lifetime.

My own guess is probably not, but it's really hard to tell, because it's impossible to be sure what Josephus himself actually wrote.

Although it's certainly plausible that that the real James was martyred, it's hard to see Josephus describing the event in the way it's reported in the extant manuscripts.

It looks that way to me.

Aristilus

Hi "Bacht". A book i'm reading at the moment attempts to explain those very points. It's called "The Jesus Dynasty (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by James D. Tabor. It is a very interesting and informative book.

bacht

Thanks. I'm interested in James because he may have been the most important Judean Christian of his day. Paul of course has been immortalized as the apostle to the gentiles, the ultimate inheritors of the Christ belief system.

I accept Doherty's suggestion that these early Christians came to their beliefs through scripture interpretation and visions, like the Transfiguration scene in 2 Peter. There is an echo of Isaiah's vision of God's glory, or Zechariah's "visions in the night".

These people seem to have been entirely inconspicuous in their own day, overshadowed by politics and violence. "The pen is mightier than the sword" indeed.

aa5874

Well, let's see what can be found about James, this supposedly most important Judean Christian, in the NT.

Galations 1.19 That's it.

Toto

Not true. Check Acts 15, where James is the head of the Jerusalem group and the decider.And in Acts 21, Paul reports back:.

And there are further mentions in the epistles:

In each of these, James is recognized as the leader, the enforcer, and the decider.

thentian

How does the Didache fit in the picture? Also, what is recommended reading about it?

Cheers!

aa5874

You may be referring to James the son of Zebedee, or some other James. There were at least three persons named James, only one passage refers directly to a James called the brother of the Lord.

In the Gospels, virtually every time Peter, James and John are mentioned together, it is always James, the brother of John.