Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rhutchin · 05-09-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

This is not the only demand that is placed on the Christian. For example, Paul says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. "(1 Timothy 5:8). As it says, "...specially for those of his own house,...", then we can conclude that "...if any provide not for his own..." applies to a group that extends beyond his own house, or family. This probably encompasses those within the body of Christ (generally, his church/denomination).

The Christian is to give consistent with his ability to give and with the need for the gift. Jesus begins this teaching by saying, "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." One would not give if it would not accomplish good. If a man asked him for money so that he could buy drugs, then the Christian can easily say, No. If a man asks for money so as to avoid having to work for a living, the Christian could again say, No. Where the need is legitimate and the Christian is fulfilling his other obligations, then the Christian can give and should give.

It doesn't matter since the Bible is not a trustworthy source of information.

Which makes everything else you say somewhat irrelevant since there is no reason to think that what you say is trustworthy either.

Regardless, the OP refers to that which the Bible says, so we are merely determining what the Bible says which does not require that it be trustworthy (even if it is).

Johnny Skeptic · 05-09-2010, 05:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It doesn't matter since the Bible is not a trustworthy source of information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Which makes everything else you say somewhat irrelevant since there is no reason to think that what you say is trustworthy either.

But regarding the global flood, it is not what I say that is important, but the vast majority of experts who believe that a global flood did not occur, including some Christian experts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Regardless, the OP refers to that which the Bible says, so we are merely determining what the Bible says which does not require that it be trustworthy (even if it is).

Since it is a virtual certainty that a global flood did not occur, it is reasonable to assume on that basis alone that the Bible contains errors. If the claim that the Ten Plagues occured in Egypt is included, and the claim that God would give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre, and the claim that Jesus performed many miracles in Jerusalem, and throughout all of Galilee, and throughout all of Syria, and that great multitudes of people sometimes followed him, and that the entire group of women at the tomb forgot that Jesus said that he would rise from the dead, the case against the Bible becomes even stronger.

That means that it would only make sense to study the Bible from an entirely academic perspective since truth is obviously not an issue. If enimigo wishes to limit discussions to an entirely academic perspective, I will save my comments for other threads.

steve_bnk · 05-09-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

If the stuff about giving away one's possessions is hyperbole, then why do monks and friars and nuns do it?

In exchage they get lifetime room and board, medical care, and retirement. Not a bad deal in the down economy.

Saramago · 05-09-2010, 07:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

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Originally Posted by Saramago

And one knows it's been figured out "right"...how? When it seems to make sense? That's circular.

Perhaps it is circular, but how do you make decisions in your life? A good Christian (if there is such an animal) would use the beatitudes as a guide in informing himself as to what the decision should be.

Yeah, but a good Christian would believe that this instruction book was inspired by God, or even is the word of God...the creator of the universe and their souls, and the arbiter of all morality. I don't. Big difference.

Quote:

Much of it speaks to no more than sincerity and love for your neighbor - and an honest heart. Be true to what you know to be right in the first place.

Right. Let people take what they want from you. Reject your family. You don't pay any attention to your own physical needs. Etc.

Quote:

Much of what Jesus said is in juxtaposition to what the practice of the pharisees was. He did not like them - which contradicts a lot of his own sayings right there) Nevertheless millions of Christians have found his sayings to be useful one way or another. They do tuck at your conscience and can help you avoid being a total a-hole.

"useful one way or another...help you avoid being a total a-hole"... What a solid endorsement for the edicts of the creator of the universe.

Saramago · 05-09-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

And one knows it's been figured out "right"...how? When it seems to make sense? That's circular.

Perhaps it is circular, but how do you make decisions in your life? A good Christian (if there is such an animal) would use the beatitudes as a guide in informing himself as to what the decision should be. Much of it speaks to no more than sincerity and love for your neighbor - and an honest heart. Be true to what you know to be right in the first place.
Much of what Jesus said is in juxtaposition to what the practice of the pharisees was. He did not like them - which contradicts a lot of his own sayings right there) Nevertheless millions of Christians have found his sayings to be useful one way or another. They do tuck at your conscience and can help you avoid being a total a-hole.

What if I thought polygamy & slavery were "right in the first place"? How would the Bible help guide me on these moral issues?

Imnotspecial · 05-09-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

Perhaps it is circular, but how do you make decisions in your life? A good Christian (if there is such an animal) would use the beatitudes as a guide in informing himself as to what the decision should be. Much of it speaks to no more than sincerity and love for your neighbor - and an honest heart. Be true to what you know to be right in the first place.
Much of what Jesus said is in juxtaposition to what the practice of the pharisees was. He did not like them - which contradicts a lot of his own sayings right there) Nevertheless millions of Christians have found his sayings to be useful one way or another. They do tuck at your conscience and can help you avoid being a total a-hole.

What if I thought polygamy & slavery were "right in the first place"? How would the Bible help guide me on these moral issues?

Did I ever suggest to look to the bible for guidance? Perhaps you misunderstand when I am sarcastic. Perhaps not always obvious if you are new around here.

Can you really imagine that polygamy and slavery are right in the first place, I mean these days? I am basically talking about well informed conscience, informed by all the knowledge gained so far by humanity. Reason will dictate the best choices.

storytime · 05-10-2010, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imnotspecial

...
Do you think Jesus was really asking you to pluck out your eyes?

If the eye (or some other organ) is terminally diseased and threatens the health of the rest of the body, even modern medicine would excise it or amputate it. I think Jesus was using a common analogy here.

But what about Jesus telling people not to divorce, ever? to give away all of their money to the poor? to give money to anyone who asks? If it's inconvenient, can you just decide that it's not to be taken literally?

What exactly is the meaning of this hyperbole if it is not the plain meaning of the words?

It reads as if Jesus was teching communal living, what could be comparable to Republicans today who are against Socialism. Greedy people are not prone to offer aid and assistance to the needy, but they want you to keep your hands off their SS and Medicare. Prosperity televangelists want you to send them your money but unlike Robin Hood they are not willing to share the wealth. Evidence of this seen among their own poverty stricken members who can't pay their bills and are buried by the state. There is no insurance for the dead and dying Christians.

storytime · 05-10-2010, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by enemigo

I posted a link to this site in the humor forum, but I thought it'd be worth posting here as well in order to discuss the issue more seriously:

http://givetome.org

Basically, it focuses on Jesus' exhortation to his followers in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain to "give to every man that asketh of thee"(Luke 6:30), while soliciting donations from Christians. Is this an orthodox understanding of Jesus' teachings or do most Christians think Jesus meant something other than what he clearly said?

This is not the only demand that is placed on the Christian. For example, Paul says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. "(1 Timothy 5:8). As it says, "...specially for those of his own house,...", then we can conclude that "...if any provide not for his own..." applies to a group that extends beyond his own house, or family. This probably encompasses those within the body of Christ (generally, his church/denomination).

The Christian is to give consistent with his ability to give and with the need for the gift. Jesus begins this teaching by saying, "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." One would not give if it would not accomplish good. If a man asked him for money so that he could buy drugs, then the Christian can easily say, No. If a man asks for money so as to avoid having to work for a living, the Christian could again say, No. Where the need is legitimate and the Christian is fulfilling his other obligations, then the Christian can give and should give.

And, "thy enemies shall be those of thine own houselhold". Angry, hateful Christians who hate their fellow Christians should also be treated with kindness and love. For what good or benefit is it to you when only loving those who agree with you? But God makes it rain on the good and the evil in their time and according to their measure doth He judge in witness to them all.

Infidels excluded. :devil1:

rhutchin · 05-10-2010, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

This is not the only demand that is placed on the Christian. For example, Paul says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. "(1 Timothy 5:8). As it says, "...specially for those of his own house,...", then we can conclude that "...if any provide not for his own..." applies to a group that extends beyond his own house, or family. This probably encompasses those within the body of Christ (generally, his church/denomination).

The Christian is to give consistent with his ability to give and with the need for the gift. Jesus begins this teaching by saying, "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you." One would not give if it would not accomplish good. If a man asked him for money so that he could buy drugs, then the Christian can easily say, No. If a man asks for money so as to avoid having to work for a living, the Christian could again say, No. Where the need is legitimate and the Christian is fulfilling his other obligations, then the Christian can give and should give.

And, "thy enemies shall be those of thine own household". Angry, hateful Christians who hate their fellow Christians should also be treated with kindness and love. For what good or benefit is it to you when only loving those who agree with you? But God makes it rain on the good and the evil in their time and according to their measure doth He judge in witness to them all.

Infidels excluded. :devil1:

Wrong context. It's talking about infidels, not Christians.

Micah 7
1 What misery is mine! I am like one who gathers summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster of grapes to eat, none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The godly have been swept from the land; not one upright man remains. All men lie in wait to shed blood; each hunts his brother with a net.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil; the ruler demands gifts, the judge accepts bribes, the powerful dictate what they desire--they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier, the most upright worse than a thorn hedge. The day of your watchmen has come, the day God visits you. Now is the time of their confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Even with her who lies in your embrace be careful of your words.
6 For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.

storytime · 05-10-2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

And, "thy enemies shall be those of thine own household". Angry, hateful Christians who hate their fellow Christians should also be treated with kindness and love. For what good or benefit is it to you when only loving those who agree with you? But God makes it rain on the good and the evil in their time and according to their measure doth He judge in witness to them all.

Infidels excluded. :devil1:

Wrong context. It's talking about infidels, not Christians.

Micah 7
1 What misery is mine! I am like one who gathers summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster of grapes to eat, none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The godly have been swept from the land; not one upright man remains. All men lie in wait to shed blood; each hunts his brother with a net.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil; the ruler demands gifts, the judge accepts bribes, the powerful dictate what they desire--they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier, the most upright worse than a thorn hedge. The day of your watchmen has come, the day God visits you. Now is the time of their confusion.
5 Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Even with her who lies in your embrace be careful of your words.
6 For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man’s enemies are the members of his own household.

Who did Jesus consider his enemies? Did he accuse the Romans of disobeying his Jewish laws? Did he consider Rome to be his household? No, for Romans were not considered as sons of Jacob called Israel. And Jesus was not sent to any people but his own household. "I am sent to none but the lost sheep in the house of Israel." Also, he wasn't sent to the righteous in Israel but the sinners who were transgressors of the law of Moses given only to the Israelites. All in the household of Jacob-Israel. You can try to fit the whole world into this story but it just doesn't fit.

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