Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bigbee · 09-27-2010, 12:44 AM

Did Celsus(Greek philosopher) really record Christ's birth, parents, journey, miracles and all as some apologist will have us believe?. . .

Toto · 09-27-2010, 12:49 AM

Which apologist?

Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

Roger Pearse · 09-27-2010, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles.

All this from Origen, "Contra Celsum", which is online in English here.

Quote:

But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

These claims are not derived from anything Celsus says, tho, so they would seem to be modern speculation. It is probably unnecessary to suppose that Celsus derived his hatred of Christians from Christians, rather than the stock invective against them circulating in the 2nd century.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

aa5874 · 09-27-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Which apologist?

Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

No way.

Celsus REJECTED the Christians account.

The Christian account was that Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin.

Celsus claimed that it was rumored that Jesus was a child of infidelity.

"Against Celsus" 1.32

Quote:

...But let us now return to where the Jew is introduced, speaking of the mother of Jesus, and saying that "when she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been guilty of adultery, and that she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera"....

Surely that is NOT the Christian account.

Origen responded to Celsus.

"Against Celsus" 1.32

Quote:

...It was to be expected, indeed, that those who would not believe the miraculous birth of Jesus would invent some falsehood.

And their not doing this in a credible manner, but (their) preserving the fact that it was not by Joseph that the Virgin conceived Jesus, rendered the falsehood very palpable to those who can understand and detect such inventions....

andrewcriddle · 09-27-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Which apologist?

Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

Celsus is not himself an independent witness to Jesus, however he does appear to have knowledge of earlier hostile accounts of Jesus, mainly from Jewish sources.

(How far, if at all, these hostile acounts are independent of the Gospels is another matter.)

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 09-27-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Which apologist?

Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

Celsus is not himself an independent witness to Jesus, however he does appear to have knowledge of earlier hostile accounts of Jesus, mainly from Jewish sources.

(How far, if at all, these hostile acounts are independent of the Gospels is another matter.)

Andrew Criddle

You mean FICTITIOUS inventions.

Origen claimed the accounts by Celsus were FICTION.

This is Origen's reply to Celsus.

"Against Celsus"

Quote:

...It was to be expected, indeed, that those who would not believe the miraculous birth of Jesus would invent some falsehood.

And their not doing this in a credible manner, but (their) preserving the fact that it was not by Joseph that the Virgin conceived Jesus, rendered the falsehood very palpable to those who can understand and detect such inventions...

Based on ORIGEN, Celsus was dealing with falsehood and INVENTIONS about Jesus.

Jesus was the offspring of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin was the TRUTH according to Origen.

avi · 09-27-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It is probably unnecessary to suppose that Celsus derived his hatred of Christians from Christians, rather than the stock invective against them circulating in the 2nd century.

Thank you Roger.

Can you point to a second century document presenting this "stock invective"?

Thanks....

avi

No Robots · 09-27-2010, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Can you point to a second century document presenting this "stock invective"?

Babylonian Talmud.

show_no_mercy · 09-27-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It is probably unnecessary to suppose that Celsus derived his hatred of Christians from Christians, rather than the stock invective against them circulating in the 2nd century.

Thank you Roger.

Can you point to a second century document presenting this "stock invective"?

Thanks....

avi

The "stock invective" seems to be modern speculation.

stephan huller · 09-27-2010, 08:50 PM

Celsus was not hostile to the Catholic tradition (which seems to have had Imperial favor by the time of Commodus and certainly into the age of the Severan Emperors):

Celsus then continues: "The Jews accordingly, and these (clearly meaning the Christians), have the same God;" and as if advancing a proposition which would not be conceded, he proceeds to make the following assertion: "It is certain, indeed, that the members of the great Church admit this, and adopt as true the accounts regarding the creation of the world which are current among the Jews, viz., concerning the six days and the seventh" on which day, as the Scripture says, God "ceased" from His works, retiring into the contemplation of Himself, but on which, as Celsus says (who does not abide by the letter of the history, and who does not understand its meaning), God "rested,"--a term which is not found in the record. [CC 5:59]

There is another reference where Origen says something to the effect that Celsus never has anything bad to say about the Catholic tradition because he couldn't find anything wrong with it. The relationship between Celsus and Christianity is more complex than people recognize. Many of his arguments against the Marcionites end up being used by Irenaeus and Ephraim and other sources. It was good to be a Catholic until the second half of the third century. It was always bad to be a member of the Alexandrian Church. Just ask Clement, Origen and Ambrose ...

09-27-2010, 12:44 AM	#1
bigbee Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Finland Posts: 53	The writings of Celsus Did Celsus(Greek philosopher) really record Christ's birth, parents, journey, miracles and all as some apologist will have us believe?. . .

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09-27-2010, 12:49 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Which apologist? Celsus did write as if he thought that Jesus was a real Palestinian who did things that were recorded in the gospels and was crucified under Pilate, and he referred to the miracles. But he seems to have just accepted the Christians account. He is not an independent witness to Jesus.

09-27-2010, 08:50 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Celsus was not hostile to the Catholic tradition (which seems to have had Imperial favor by the time of Commodus and certainly into the age of the Severan Emperors): Celsus then continues: "The Jews accordingly, and these (clearly meaning the Christians), have the same God;" and as if advancing a proposition which would not be conceded, he proceeds to make the following assertion: "It is certain, indeed, that the members of the great Church admit this, and adopt as true the accounts regarding the creation of the world which are current among the Jews, viz., concerning the six days and the seventh" on which day, as the Scripture says, God "ceased" from His works, retiring into the contemplation of Himself, but on which, as Celsus says (who does not abide by the letter of the history, and who does not understand its meaning), God "rested,"--a term which is not found in the record. [CC 5:59] There is another reference where Origen says something to the effect that Celsus never has anything bad to say about the Catholic tradition because he couldn't find anything wrong with it. The relationship between Celsus and Christianity is more complex than people recognize. Many of his arguments against the Marcionites end up being used by Irenaeus and Ephraim and other sources. It was good to be a Catholic until the second half of the third century. It was always bad to be a member of the Alexandrian Church. Just ask Clement, Origen and Ambrose ...

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