richard2

Hi,

I've been reading about the Memra, the Logos, how they relate to Jesus, and the development of the trinity. I'm a bit worried. It seems to all piece together and make sense. The memra will be a mediator between God and men, sit on the throne of God, pull off the yoke of the people, redeem its people, etc (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...&letter=M#1297). So, a few questions: Is this memra not Jesus? Did early Christians tie all of this thought together to make it fit together in the person of Jesus?

I also read on Errancy Wiki under John 1 that rabbis considered the memra as a secret name of the Messiah. There are no cites for this -- but is that true and did they consider the Messiah to be divine?

If someone could explain all this to me, I and my nerves would really appreciate it.



thanks,

richard

richard2

Anyone?

richard2

Apparently Metacrock makes this argument from the Targum. He talks about the linking Logos to Memra here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=71367&page=3

It's too bad that the thread was closed before anyone could reply to him regarding the Logos and Memra. Some people use this argument to say that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. How would a skeptic reply?

Amaleq13

I don't understand your concerns. Why should it bother any "skeptic" that Christians may have relied, at least in part, on Jewish philosophical ruminations about the nature of God to inform their mythologizing of Jesus?

richard2

I thought the same, but I just wanted to hear it from someone elses mouth first, as I'm not an expert in these things. Thanks.

Toto

Metacrock's arguments are contained in one of his web pages here.
He relies on Alfred Edersheim, a Biblical scholar who converted to Chistianity and was a missionary to the Jews of Romania. I'm not up on these arguments, but I think I recall Jewish objections to reading the Christian Messiah into the Targum.

nygreenguy

My faith says YES it is Jesus. We dont believe the early christians made it fit together, but jesus SAID it. Several times he talked about sitting on the right of god and how redemption can come only through him.

Chris Weimer

Nor do we really care about your faith. Welcome to the upper fora - please use evidence to support your posts and not merely spout of faith based positions. Not only are they unwelcome here, but reflect poorly on your character.

nygreenguy

Well, i suppose we could do WITHOUT the insults, characterizations,and condecending attitude. And perhaps you should <ahem> pratice what you preech and contribute as well, instead of insulting. NOW, since i assumed many of you are familliar with the bible, i will explain as to what i meant. (as some obviously didnt get it)

Here are some examples of Jesus speaking of how he is between God and us:

Hebrews 9:
24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

Now, some christians have twisted the idea of the trinity into it all, but Jesus is actually seperate from God. If the trinity WERE true, why would God need a mediator such as jesus, who is really God.

If you follow your link and read it, almost every single description fits Jesus.
So, the article describes Jesus, but the Jews have failed to realize the divinity of christ.

Chris Weimer

Sorry if you read either insult or condescend into my speech, but that was not the purpose. The purpose was that arguments from faith are not valid here.

Gosh, I didn't know that Jesus wrote Hebrews 9. (Yeah, that is sarcasm.)

Jesus wrote 1 Timothy also, and claimed to be Paul? Huh. Interesting.

Which Jesus? My Jesus looks nothing like that.

First you're going to have to do a lot better than the Bible as your only source of Jesus' life. What evidence have you that you can trust it in this regards? The accounts of Jesus as "savior" and all that glitz is pure fiction made up after the man died a criminal on the cross.