Amos

We would call them Jesuits and it would be foolish to die as martyr at this stage of the game.

Here's why: Jesus died to become the first Christian and he died not as martyr but as victor. We are called to do the same and so it is foolish to follow Jesus as Christian because there is just no victory in that. In fact, it is a paradox.

Bernard Muller

Maybe "Jesuine" is easier on the tongue
PS: J.D., did you get to read my website?
Best regards, Bernard

Bernard Muller

No Amos, not Jesuits. That's not what I had in mind.
Best regards, Bernard

Amos

Sorry my fault. Jesuits are called Jesuits because they are followers of Jesus and as such were they Christians-in-becoming.

Tickfast

"So I think we can have less talk about Christians not dying for a lie."
It's a Bullpup argument, anyway.

The christians that died in the lion's arena for holding to their religion in the face of certain death are not any more proof of accuracy than the pagans that the Holy Roman Empire threw to the lions for holding to THEIR religion in the face of certain death.
Martyrdom says a lot about the believer, but proves nothing about the subject of their belief.

CX

I'm not sure that's a valid argument unless you are being facetious. The "dying for a lie" bit is usually intended to use the alleged martyrdom of various NT figures as support for the truth of the Xian program. In other words the martyrs knew they would die if they continued to preach the gospel and they knew it was a lie, but they did it anyway. In the case of Acts 5, Ananias is trying to cheat the church out of some money. He has no inkling ahead of time that the penality will be death. Peter calls him on it and Ananias drops dead. Ergo I don't think this really supports any argument against the Xian martyr argument.

On the other hand it does demonstrate the incredible greed & cruelty of the Xian god. He kills a guy for trying to keep some money for himself instead of giving it all to the church.

Grumpy

Following that to a tangent... Whenever I think of martyrs, I think of the Turks who were imprisoned and beat to death because they refused to forsake the fez.

Steven Carr

A little....

But did any prospective martyrs in the 30's know that there was going to be somebody called Nero in the 60's. They were surely as unaware as Ananias.

Tickfast

Well, sure. Women change their clothes more than once a week. Once men find a look that 'works' they'll wear it til it rots off if you let them.

CX

Hmmm...I'm not sure what that has to do with the question at hand. The argument Xians make that the supposed martyrs would not have willingly died for something they new to be untrue seems to me untouched by the episode with Ananias and Sapphira.