paarsurrey

Hi

I understand from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1838-1908, the PromisedMessiah, in his book Chashma-e-Masihi in Urdu, I have translated a passage from it herein below:

“It should be remembered that Paul was a deadly enemy of Jesus, and as is written in the history books of Jews, he had certain motives with the Jews which they did not fulfill; so Paul became a Christian to harm Jews to avenge from them for his lost ambitions, he apparently claimed that he saw a vision though, in which he had met Jesus.”

Is there any history book of Jews which mentions the above?

Thanks

angelo

It is well known that Paul was a persecutor of christians, that is until his vision of christ.
Then, just like an ex- smoker, pursued with vigor the non-believers.
Now we can only speculate what caused this vision. Was it schizophrenia, a blow to the head, meningitis, fever, any other reason, like maybe, seeing there was a coin to be made from the gullible. Probably no different to the many charlatans around today.

reniaa

Or maybe he did actually see jesus! his rational behaviour afterwards doesn't suggest mental illness as he went from an agreesive murderous hate of christians to a moral peace loving man that spoke thoughtfully and rationally on things.

DCHindley

I believe that this refers to the idea that Saul fell in love with the High Priest's daughter, converted to Judaism in order to marry her, and perscuted the heretic Christians to win the High Priest's favor. Saul was thwarted by the fact that a proselyte was prohibited from marrying a High Priest's daughter. Because of that Saul went on a rampage against Judaism by fostering the Jewish heresy of the Christians under the name Paul.

This version of things was supposedly advocated by the Ebionites, according to bishop Epiphanius. It was populaized by the late Hyam Maccoby in his book _The Mythmaker_.

DCH

schilling.klaus

this is a lie invented by churchfathers.
It is absent in the earlier Marcionite version of the epistles.
Paul is fictional, anyways.

Klaus Schilling

stuart shepherd

In the Pauline epistles, the Apostle Paul brags about his Jewish background.
Philippians 3:5(King James Version)
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

When Paul wrote his letter to the Romans, he apparently was writing to a congregation that was predominately of a Gentile background.
Romans 1:13(King James Version)
13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

Now comes the interesting part.........
Read the following verses and tell me what you think.
Romans 9:23-25(King James Version)
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Paul is addressing the Gentile Romans and telling them that they are called as well as the Jews. But when he says "Even us" is Paul putting himself into the Gentile group and in effect saying he is a gentile? Did Paul misspeak and "tip his hand?"

Is it possible that Paul was really a Gentile masquerading as a Jew?
I am not sure...tell me how you understand his words.

Stuart Shepherd

schilling.klaus

Paul wasn't anything, the authors who forged and patched the epistles together were, not before mid second century.
The early (Marcionite) were by pre-Catholic Christians who correctly denied any connection between the Jesus of the gospel and the Messiah of the Tanakh.
The Roman Catholic deformers tried to trick people into believing that the gospel were about fulfilling the Tanakh.

Klaus Schilling

Toto

No, there is no mention of Paul in Jewish history books.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Islam is conjectured to have adopted some of the history and doctrines of the non-orthodox Christian sects, and this appears to be an Ebionite view of Paul.

aa5874

Where and when was that well known? The Acts of the Apostles appears to be fictious with respect to "Paul" and may have been written in the 2nd century. And Justin Martyr is aware of Marcion but makes no mention at all of "Paul" anywhere in his extant writings.

And further, Philo of Alexandria, who lived during the time of Pilate and wrote several years afterwards, made no mention of Jesus the Christ, his thousands of followers, his teachings, or anyone named "Paul", a Jew of Tarsus.

angelo

This is like removing a brick wall brick by brick. Remove all the bricks, and soon the wall seems like it never existed in the first place.
Studied properly, christianity is just like the brick wall.