FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-16-2008, 08:28 AM   #31
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-J View Post
Isn't the Catholic Church's basic position "it doesn't really matter?" (I've heard pretty much the same from some Anglicans). Science is a gift from God to help us understand the wonders of creation, but how exactly the earth and universe came about, as described by science, isn't that relevant for faith.
It is not science that is a gift from God, it is the Holy Ghost. Do you know the gifts of God?

Acts 2.38,
Quote:
Then said Peter unto them, Repent......and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Science do not deal with the Holy Ghost or consider it a gift from anyone.
aa5874 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 09:19 AM   #32
2-J
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Default

Need we think of the Holy Ghost as God's only gift to us
2-J is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 10:27 AM   #33
Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-J View Post
Need we think of the Holy Ghost as God's only gift to us
But, the Catholics used to think of the Holy Ghost as a package of gifts, before Darwin.

And they appear to believe that when you were filled with the Holy Ghost, you were probably superior to a scientist.

Look at the words of one of most famous Catholic, the so-called "Paul", the supposed founder of seven Catholic Churches.

1 Corinthians 12.4-11
Quote:
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.......For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom.....another the word of knowledge.....to another faith.....to another the gifts of healing.....another the working of miracles another prophecy[/b].... another the discerning of spirits.......another divers kind of tongues[/b]......another the interpretation of tongues[/b], but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, diviidng to every man severally as he will.
Why be a scientist when you can be Catholic with a ton of gifts from the Holy Spirit?
aa5874 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:23 AM   #34
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós View Post
Tomayto, tomahto, WishboneDawn. Sure there are differences, as in the XXIst century it's the most ridiculous thing to be a YEC after all science has discovered, but St Gus still believed the same 6000 year thing that defines YEC. He didn't have to go into all the trouble of going against the impressive system of turn of the XXIst c science, all he had to do is call disbelievers "liars", which makes him a fool and not so "reasonable chap", as you call him. More like an ignorant snake-oil salesman calling everybody else a liar.
Augustine's statement in context is online here
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XII.10.html
It is not a straightforward argument from Biblical authority but a serious attempt to critically examine the secular historical sources available to him.

By modern standards, neither the arguments of Augustine nor those of his opponents are valid, but FWIW he was justified in his scepticism about Egyptian records genuinely going back more than 5000 years before the time he was writing.

(Very minor point; Augustine did not follow the chronology found in the KJV of the Bible and he believed the world to have been created in 5000 BCE not 4000 BCE.)

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:17 PM   #35
Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Lebanon, OR, USA
Posts: 16,829
Default

The KJV's translators worked from the Masoretic version of the Old Testament; Augustine worked from the Septuagint version, which explains the difference.

Furthermore, many and probably most pagan philosophers had thought that the Universe was eternal. Aristotle, the Epicureans, the Stoics, ...

So why did Augustine treat the Bible as literal truth here if he was such a big fat allegoricalist? Why didn't he argue that the Genesis creation stories apply only to our place and time in the Universe? Or even that they are allegories for timeless processes?
lpetrich is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:53 PM   #36
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bli Bli
Posts: 3,135
Default

Although, not entirely, Augustine did pretty much take quite literal view of the creation of Adam, and clearly one that would not jibe with common descent.

Augustine opposed and argued against pelagianism. To do so he needed to argue that Adam was not mortal prior to eating the fruit.

Reasoning from a literal reading of Genesis he argued that Adam was neither mortal (destined to definitely die) nor immortal (unable to die), but rather in an in between state, where he could have lived indefinitely but still have been able at some point to sin and become mortal.
This view , I believe persisted right up to the 20th century.

These two links, by a christian apologist will give some background on Augustines thinking and a little insight into how long it persisted.

The original immortals

Virgin birth.
judge is offline  
Old 04-17-2008, 06:05 AM   #37
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
Default

From my article on Darwin and race:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...win_nazism.htm

Quote:
In 1854 Archbishop Richard Whately, a renowned theological scholar, had published Origin of Civilization, in which he argued that God originally created mankind as perfect and in a state of civilization with technology and laws, but that since the "fall of man" different races of people have fallen away from God and have thus degenerated into "savages". He, and others, argued that progress is unnatural and that it was impossible for inferior races to ever improve themselves and be capable of living among whites. A discussion of his views can be seen in the review below, from 1869:


source: Cornell University Archive

This argument continued to be made after Darwin had published The Origin of Species and was used as an attack on "Darwinism". Darwin later responded to this line of thought in his book The Descent of Man:
The arguments recently advanced by the Duke of Argyll and formerly by Archbishop Whately, in favour of the belief that man came into the world as a civilised being, and that all savages have since undergone degradation, seem to me weak in comparison with those advanced on the other side. Many nations, no doubt, have fallen away in civilisation, and some may have lapsed into utter barbarism, though on this latter head I have met with no evidence.
...
The evidence that all civilised nations are the descendants of barbarians, consists, on the one side, of clear traces of their former low condition in still-existing customs, beliefs, language, &c.; and on the other side, of proofs that savages are independently able to raise themselves a few steps in the scale of civilisation, and have actually thus risen. The evidence on the first head is extremely curious, but cannot be here given: ... According to a large and increasing school of philologists, every language bears the marks of its slow and gradual evolution. So it is with the art of writing, for letters are rudiments of pictorial representations. It is hardly possible to read Mr. M'Lennan's work and not admit that almost all civilised nations still retain traces of such rude habits as the forcible capture of wives. What ancient nation, as the same author asks, can be named that was originally monogamous? The primitive idea of justice, as shewn by the law of battle and other customs of which vestiges still remain, was likewise most rude. Many existing superstitions are the remnants of former false religious beliefs. The highest form of religion-the grand idea of God hating sin and loving righteousness-was unknown during primeval times.
...
In all parts of Europe, as far east as Greece, in Palestine, India, Japan, New Zealand, and Africa, including Egypt, flint tools have been discovered in abundance; and of their use the existing inhabitants retain no tradition. There is also indirect evidence of their former use by the Chinese and ancient Jews. Hence there can hardly be a doubt that the inhabitants of these countries, which include nearly the whole civilised world, were once in a barbarous condition. To believe that man was aboriginally civilised and then suffered utter degradation in so many regions, is to take a pitiably low view of human nature. It is apparently a truer and more cheerful view that progress has been much more general than retrogression; that man has risen, though by slow and interrupted steps, from a lowly condition to the highest standard as yet attained by him in knowledge, morals and religion.
- Charles Darwin; The Descent of Man, 1871
In 1871 Archbishop Whately's line of argument was again defended by The Catholic Church in a July publication of "Catholic World".
He, of course, adopts the modern theory of progress, and maintains that the savage is the type of the primitive man, and that he has emerged from his original barbarism and superstition to his present advanced civilization and religious belief and worship by his own energy and persevering efforts at self-evolution or development, without any foreign or supernatural instruction or assistance.
...
We have no patience with such men as Herbert Spencer, Huxley, and Darwin. We are hardly less impatient with the scientists who in our own country hold them up to our admiration and reverence as marvelous discoverers, and as the great and brilliant lights of the age. We love science, we honor the men who devote their lives to its cultivation, but we ask that it be science, not hypothesis piled on hypothesis, nor simply a thing of mere conjectures or guesses.

The modern doctrine of progress or development, which supposes a man began in the lowest savage, if not lower still, is not a doctrine suggested by any facts observed and classified in men's history, nor is it a logical induction from any class of known facts, but a gratuitous hypothesis invented and asserted against the Biblical doctrine of creation, of Providence, of original sin, and of the supernatural instruction, government, redemption, and salvation of men. The hypothesis is suggested by hostility to the Christian revelation, prior to the analysis and classification of any facts to sustain it, and the scientists who defend it are simply investigating nature, not in the interests of science properly so-called, but, consciously or unconsciously, to find facts to support an hypothesis which may be opposed to both.
...
Their hypothesis of progress, evolution, or development is unquestionably repugnant to the whole Christian doctrine and order of thought. If it is true, Christianity is false. They must then, before urging it, either prove Christianity untrue or an idle tale, or else prove absolutely, beyond the possibility of a rational doubt, the truth of their hypothesis. It is enough to prove that it may, for aught you know, be true; you must prove that it is true, and cannot be false. Christianity is too important a fact in the world's history to be set aside by an undemonstrated hypothesis.
...
Let the question be understood. Christianity teaches us that in the beginning God created heaven and earth, and all things therein, visible and invisible, that he made man after his own image and likeness, placed him in the garden of Eden, gave him a law, that is, made him a revelation of his will, instructed him in his moral and religious duty, established him in original justice, in a supernatural state, under a supernatural providence, on the plane of a supernatural destiny; that man prevaricated, broke the law given him, lost his original justice, the integrity of his nature attached thereto, and communion with his Maker, fell under the dominion of the flesh, became captive to Satan, and subject to death, moral, temporal, and eternal; that God, of his own goodness and mercy, promised him pardon and deliverance, redemption and salvation, through his own Son made man, who in due time was born to the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, was dead and buried, and on the third day rose again, ascended into heaven, whence he shall come again, to judge the living and the dead. This doctrine, in substance, was made to our first parents in the garden, was preserved in the tradition of the patriarchs, in its purity in the synagogue, and in its purity and integrity in the Christian church founded on it, and authorized and assisted by God himself to teach it to all men and nations.

According to this doctrine, the origin of man, the human species, as well as of the universe and all its contents, is in the creative act of God, not in evolution or development. The first man was not a monkey or a tadpole developed, nor a savage or barbarian, but was a man full-grown in the integrity of his nature, instructed by his Maker, and the most perfect man of his race, and as he is the progenitor of all mankind, it follows that mankind began not in "utter barbarism," as Sir John asserts, but in the full development and perfection of manhood, with the knowledge of God and providence, of their origin and destiny, and of their moral and religious duty. Ignorance has followed as the penalty or consequence of sin, instead of being the original condition in which man was created; and this ignorance brought on the race by the prevarication of Adam, the dominion of the flesh, and the power of Satan acquired thereby, are the origin and cause of barbarism of individuals and nations, the innumerable moral and social evils which have afflicted mankind in all times and places.
...
The Biblical history explains the origin of the barbarous superstitions of heathendom in a very satisfactory way, and shows us very clearly that the savage state is not the primitive state, but has been produced by sin, and is the result of what we call the great gentile apostasy, or falling away of the nations from the primitive or patriarchal religion. When language was confounded at Babel, and the dispersion of mankind took place, unity of speech or language was lost, and with it unity of ideas or of faith, and each tribe or nation took its own course, and developed a tribal or national religion of its own. Gradually each tribe or nation lost the conception of God as creator, and formed to itself gods made in its own image, clothed with its own passions, and it bowed down and worshipped the work of its own hands.
...
We see this deterioration going on in our midst and right before our eyes, as the effect of apostasy from our holy religion. This proves that apostasy is sufficient to explain the existence of the savage races, without supposing the human race began in "utter barbarism." If apostasy in modern times, as we see it does, leads to "utter barbarism," why should it not have done so in ancient times?
...
Yet the traditions of the heathen nations do not in general favor the main point of Sir John's hypothesis, that men come out of barbarism by their own spontaneous development, natural progressiveness, or indigenous and unaided efforts. They rise, according to these traditions, to the civilized state only by the assistance of the gods, or by the aid of missionaries or colonies from nations already civilized.
...
The chief characteristic of the savage state is in fact its immobility. The savage gyrates from age to age in the same narrow circle- never of himself advances beyond it. Whether a tribe sunk in what Sir John calls "utter barbarism," and which he holds is the original state of the human race, has ever been or ever can be elevated to a civilized state by any human efforts, even of others already civilized, is, perhaps, problematical. As far as experience goes, the tendency of such a tribe, brought in contact with a civilized race, is to retire the deeper into the forest, to waste away, and finally become extinct. Certain it is, no instance of its becoming a civilized people can be named.
...
Sir John's theory of progress is just now popular, and is put forth with great confidence in the respectable name of science, and the modern world, with socialists, accept it, with great pomp and parade. Yet it is manifestly absurd. Nothing cannot make itself something, nor can any thing make itself more than it is. The imperfect cannot of itself perfect itself, and no man can lift himself by his own waistbands.
- Origin of Civilization; Catholic World, July 1871
By this reasoning the "savages" were guilty of their own condition by sin, they had degenerated from the original "perfect" human archetype, which was now preserved only among the white races, and these savages, as sinners against God, were thus deserving of any punishment or genocide brought against them by the "armies of God".
The main point here being that regardless of whether or not Catholics interpreted Genesis as exactly literal word-for-word prior to Darwin, they did use Genesis as a meaningful description of the origin of the world and as an explanation of how life came into existence and how man and civilization were formed. They never, to my knowledge, ever interpreted Genesis as "just a story" which had no real explanatory power of the real process of the creation of life, humans, and civilization.

Archbishop Whately's argument, which predated Origin of Species, was fundamentally based on Genesis, even though it wasn't reliant on a word-for-word literal interpretation. The same really goes for Augustine.
Malachi151 is offline  
Old 04-17-2008, 08:09 AM   #38
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eastern US.
Posts: 15
Default

Quote:
Their hypothesis of progress, evolution, or development is unquestionably repugnant to the whole Christian doctrine and order of thought. If it is true, Christianity is false.
Well, that's putting it plainly. It seems that Catholic World knew exactly what the stakes were back then. And even though, as you say, Catholicism wasn't relying on a word-by-word literalism about Genesis the way the fundies do today, they knew that the theory of evolution was diametrically opposed to the concept behind Genesis -- that God created Man in his present state, not in some previous, less-evolved state, and that Man sinned and started the whole ball rolling. There's a link somewhere in the archive at IIDB to a statement by a modern Pope (I think it was Pius XII) which opens up other possibilities than the traditional Adam and Eve story, even claiming that it could have been a group of men that sinned, not just one person. I was amazed when I realized that they would do so much waffling on such a core principle of Christianity, but it shows that the evidence for evolution and an Earth older than 6000 years is so strong. Personally, I don't think there's any way to force Genesis and Darwin together, because it brings up so many sticky theological points. Like, if Man evolved, then where exactly did Adam come into the picture?
jaymack2 is offline  
Old 04-17-2008, 10:45 AM   #39
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
The KJV's translators worked from the Masoretic version of the Old Testament; Augustine worked from the Septuagint version, which explains the difference.

Furthermore, many and probably most pagan philosophers had thought that the Universe was eternal. Aristotle, the Epicureans, the Stoics, ...

So why did Augustine treat the Bible as literal truth here if he was such a big fat allegoricalist? Why didn't he argue that the Genesis creation stories apply only to our place and time in the Universe? Or even that they are allegories for timeless processes?
I think there are two issues here.

i/ Is the world eternal ?
Most Early Christians writers held that it was theologically important that the Material Universe was not eternal. They would have held that the idea of eternal matter undermined the Christian doctrine of God as sole creative principle.


ii/ How old is the world ?
Most pagans who believed that the world was eternal believed that it had been going on much the same as now for ever. (They were mostly not thinking of a very ancient world with humans a late arrival and civilization much later still.) Claims about very very ancient records from Egypt were made in support of this position. In principle Early Christians would IMO have been prepared if necessary to reinterpret the Genesis chronology so as to allow say 10,000 years for Egyptian civilization. They were mostly not too literalist to prevent this. (Their main problem IMO would have been admitting that the learning of Egypt was much much older than the Patriarchs. ) However, the Early Christian writers regarded this Egyptian evidence as unreliable (which it largely was) and did not see a need to reinterpret the Bible on this basis.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
Old 04-19-2008, 02:25 AM   #40
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

I found an interesting passage in Aquinas' Commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard, concerning the Six Days of Creation. (In Penguin Classics Thomas Aquinas Selected Writings).

Aquinas is discussing whether the World was created instantantaneously by God or in a literal 144 hours. He gives as his opinion that although the text of Scripture supports creation in a literal six days, one should prefer to follow here the scientific/philosophical arguments in favour of instantaneous creation rather than the literal sense of Genesis.

Among the arguments for instantaneous creation given by Aquinas is that it is difficult to see how water and earth can have existed for several days before the creation of the heavenly bodies.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:49 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.