Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
04-16-2008, 08:28 AM | #31 | ||
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
Quote:
Acts 2.38, Quote:
|
||
04-16-2008, 09:19 AM | #32 |
Regular Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 179
|
Need we think of the Holy Ghost as God's only gift to us
|
04-16-2008, 10:27 AM | #33 | |
Contributor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: the fringe of the caribbean
Posts: 18,988
|
But, the Catholics used to think of the Holy Ghost as a package of gifts, before Darwin.
And they appear to believe that when you were filled with the Holy Ghost, you were probably superior to a scientist. Look at the words of one of most famous Catholic, the so-called "Paul", the supposed founder of seven Catholic Churches. 1 Corinthians 12.4-11 Quote:
|
|
04-16-2008, 11:23 AM | #34 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XII.10.html It is not a straightforward argument from Biblical authority but a serious attempt to critically examine the secular historical sources available to him. By modern standards, neither the arguments of Augustine nor those of his opponents are valid, but FWIW he was justified in his scepticism about Egyptian records genuinely going back more than 5000 years before the time he was writing. (Very minor point; Augustine did not follow the chronology found in the KJV of the Bible and he believed the world to have been created in 5000 BCE not 4000 BCE.) Andrew Criddle |
|
04-16-2008, 02:17 PM | #35 |
Contributor
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Lebanon, OR, USA
Posts: 16,829
|
The KJV's translators worked from the Masoretic version of the Old Testament; Augustine worked from the Septuagint version, which explains the difference.
Furthermore, many and probably most pagan philosophers had thought that the Universe was eternal. Aristotle, the Epicureans, the Stoics, ... So why did Augustine treat the Bible as literal truth here if he was such a big fat allegoricalist? Why didn't he argue that the Genesis creation stories apply only to our place and time in the Universe? Or even that they are allegories for timeless processes? |
04-16-2008, 02:53 PM | #36 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bli Bli
Posts: 3,135
|
Although, not entirely, Augustine did pretty much take quite literal view of the creation of Adam, and clearly one that would not jibe with common descent.
Augustine opposed and argued against pelagianism. To do so he needed to argue that Adam was not mortal prior to eating the fruit. Reasoning from a literal reading of Genesis he argued that Adam was neither mortal (destined to definitely die) nor immortal (unable to die), but rather in an in between state, where he could have lived indefinitely but still have been able at some point to sin and become mortal. This view , I believe persisted right up to the 20th century. These two links, by a christian apologist will give some background on Augustines thinking and a little insight into how long it persisted. The original immortals Virgin birth. |
04-17-2008, 06:05 AM | #37 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
|
From my article on Darwin and race:
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...win_nazism.htm Quote:
Archbishop Whately's argument, which predated Origin of Species, was fundamentally based on Genesis, even though it wasn't reliant on a word-for-word literal interpretation. The same really goes for Augustine. |
|
04-17-2008, 08:09 AM | #38 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Eastern US.
Posts: 15
|
Quote:
|
|
04-17-2008, 10:45 AM | #39 | |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
Quote:
i/ Is the world eternal ? Most Early Christians writers held that it was theologically important that the Material Universe was not eternal. They would have held that the idea of eternal matter undermined the Christian doctrine of God as sole creative principle. ii/ How old is the world ? Most pagans who believed that the world was eternal believed that it had been going on much the same as now for ever. (They were mostly not thinking of a very ancient world with humans a late arrival and civilization much later still.) Claims about very very ancient records from Egypt were made in support of this position. In principle Early Christians would IMO have been prepared if necessary to reinterpret the Genesis chronology so as to allow say 10,000 years for Egyptian civilization. They were mostly not too literalist to prevent this. (Their main problem IMO would have been admitting that the learning of Egypt was much much older than the Patriarchs. ) However, the Early Christian writers regarded this Egyptian evidence as unreliable (which it largely was) and did not see a need to reinterpret the Bible on this basis. Andrew Criddle |
|
04-19-2008, 02:25 AM | #40 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
|
I found an interesting passage in Aquinas' Commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard, concerning the Six Days of Creation. (In Penguin Classics Thomas Aquinas Selected Writings).
Aquinas is discussing whether the World was created instantantaneously by God or in a literal 144 hours. He gives as his opinion that although the text of Scripture supports creation in a literal six days, one should prefer to follow here the scientific/philosophical arguments in favour of instantaneous creation rather than the literal sense of Genesis. Among the arguments for instantaneous creation given by Aquinas is that it is difficult to see how water and earth can have existed for several days before the creation of the heavenly bodies. Andrew Criddle |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|