Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-22-2008, 01:14 PM

Message to arnoldo: In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews?

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-22-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I like the fact that Johnny Skeptic calls this "a self-fulfilled prophecy" meaning that the prophecy came true. He neglects the fact that all throughout the Old testament God uses the military/politics of other nations for his own good purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

However, if the God of the Bible does not exist, that is exactly what we would expect to find. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly creating doubt and confusion.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, there would be suspicious an unexplainable statistics regarding why people believe what they believe. Kosmin and Lachman wrote a book that is titled 'One Nation Under God.' Billy Graham endorses the book on the cover or on one of the inside pages. The book is well-documented. The authors show that the primary factors that influence religious beliefs in the U.S. are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. The evidence shows that in the U.S., the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. I forget what the exact percentage is, but I can find it if I need to. As far as I recall, the percentage difference is over 7%. It is important to note that every year, the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. That is quite suspicious.

The authors show that elderly skeptics are much less likely to change their worldview than younger skeptics are, and that elderly Christians are much less likely to become skeptics than younger Christians are. If God exists, this means that he discriminates against elderly skeptics and younger Christians. If God does not exist, that explains why elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are. Again, if the God of the Bible exists, it is quite odd that he mimics that way that things would be if he did not exist.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if the God of the Bible does not exist.

You have still failed to explain why God would frequently choose to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby undermining his attempt to reasonably prove that he exists. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist. If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics would be much larger than the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Ok, geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age and time period determines why people believe what they believe. Does that also explain why YOU believe what you believe?

Yes, how about you? If you had been transported at birth back to China in 250 B.C., and were raised by Buddhists, and the community that you lived in was predominantly Buddhist, what would the odds have been that you would have heard about the God of the Bible? The correct answer is "zero." Today, what are the odds that a devout, Southern Bible Belt, fundamentalist Christian couple's son will become a fundamentalist Christian as compared with the odds of a son who is raised by Muslim parents in a remote region of Afghanistan becoming a fundamentalist Christian?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, what are the odds that a much lower percentage of elderly skeptics would become Christians than younger skeptics, and that a much larger percentage of younger skeptics would become Christians than elderly skeptics, and that a much smaller percentage of elderly Christians would become skeptics than younger Christians, and that a much larger percentage of younger Christians would become skeptics, all of which are the case today? The correct answer is 100% because it is well-known that elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion? No loving God would go out of his way to mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Please answer this question: WHY DID GOD INSPIRE JAMES TO WRITE THAT IF A MAN REFUSES TO GIVE FOOD TO HUNGRY PEOPLE, HE IS VAIN, AND HIS FAITH IS DEAD?

If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics would be much lower than the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

I like the fact that Johnny Skeptic calls this "a self-fulfilled prophecy" meaning that the prophecy came true. He neglects the fact that all throughout the Old testament God uses the military/politics of other nations for his own good purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Ok, geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age and time period determines why people believe what they believe. Does that also explain why YOU believe what you believe?

Yes, how about you? If you had been transported at birth back to China in 250 B.C., and were raised by Buddhists, and the community that you lived in was predominantly Buddhist, what would the odds have been that you would have heard about the God of the Bible? The correct answer is "zero." Today, what are the odds that a devout, Southern Bible Belt, fundamentalist Christian couple's son will become a fundamentalist Christian as compared with the odds of a son who is raised by Muslim parents in a remote region of Afghanistan becoming a fundamentalist Christian?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, what are the odds that a much lower percentage of elderly skeptics would become Christians than younger skeptics, and that a much larger percentage of younger skeptics would become Christians than elderly skeptics, and that a much smaller percentage of elderly Christians would become skeptics than younger Christians, and that a much larger percentage of younger Christians would become skeptics, all of which are the case today? The correct answer is 100% because it is well-known that elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion? No loving God would go out of his way to mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Please answer this question: WHY DID GOD INSPIRE JAMES TO WRITE THAT IF A MAN REFUSES TO GIVE FOOD TO HUNGRY PEOPLE, HE IS VAIN, AND HIS FAITH IS DEAD?

If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics would be much lower than the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

Yes, you have proven that Israel is not proof of God's existence. It's just a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy and a result of politics and military power.

Toto · 01-22-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
Yes, you have proven that Israel is not proof of God's existence. It's just a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy and a result of politics and military power.

I take it this is sarcastic, but is it an indication that this thread is ready to be closed?

I'll give it not much longer . . . .

xaxxat · 01-22-2008, 02:26 PM

If Israel is proof of Yahweh, then what a weak little god Yahweh is to not give them a better place in the world. The Arabs have gotten a better deal out of their god - rich oil fields worth billions...

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
Yes, you have proven that Israel is not proof of God's existence. It's just a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy and a result of politics and military power.

I take it this is sarcastic, but is it an indication that this thread is ready to be closed?

I'll give it not much longer . . . .

Sorry, I was being sarcastic but the constant posting the same comments can get tedious. Is there a rule against cutting and pasting the same posts over and over?

Toto · 01-22-2008, 02:38 PM

If you think that a post violates a rule or is disruptive, please use the report post button.

I gather that JS is reposting material because he thinks that you haven't responded. I gather you have no more to say - that's why I propose closing the thread.

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 02:42 PM

Israel is currently fulfilling many bible prophecies. Many bible prophecies indicate that Jerusalem will be a source of concern for all nations. There are also the prophecies of the Jews returning from wandering from the nations. Yes there are still may Jews outside of Israel but this would indicate that the prophecy is still pending total fulfillment. There is the promise of the Land to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel. These are all historical fact despite the arguments. Some called the return on Israel in 1948 a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy. This neglect the fact that God frequently uses military and politics to fulfill his prophecies. There are many examples of this in the Old Testament including God using Nebby to discipline Israel.

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you think that a post violates a rule or is disruptive, please use the report post button.

I gather that JS is reposting material because he thinks that you haven't responded. I gather you have no more to say - that's why I propose closing the thread.

Thank you, I have more to say, i am doing more research in the matter, sorry I didn't follow procedure for reporting a concern.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-22-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes, you have proven that Israel is not proof of God's existence. It's just a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy and a result of politics and military power.

Do you intend to reply to my arguments, or will you continue to make comments like that are not replies to my arguments. This is the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. How can I have disucssions with you when you make arguments, and I directly reply to them, and you refuse to directly reply to my arguments? Your are not fair. If I treated you like you treated me, no actual discussions would ever take place. For instance, you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes, you have proven that Israel is not proof of God's existence. It's just a bona-fide self fulfilled prophecy and a result of politics and military power.

Aside from the fact that no rational person would ever try to convince the undecided crowd with a brief, ridiculous post like that, if I wanted to make a reply with a similar approach, I could have said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnySkeptic

Yes, you have proven that Israel is proof of God's existence. The Partition of Palestine is a bona fide case of a fulfilled Bible prophecy.

Now if I had made a reply like that, it would have invited a similar reply by you, and this thread would continue to degrade even further because you have become so evasive and refuse to reply to my arguments, even though you want people to reply to your arguments.

Just so I understand you correctly, is it your intention to continue to refuse to directly reply to my arguments, and to continue to say that I am wrong without discussing any evidence why I am wrong? If so, then I suggest that Toto close this thread, in which case all of your posts in this thread would have been a waste of your time, but it most certainly would not have been a waste of my time because I have developed some excellent new arguments against fulfilled prophecy that I did not have before. If fact, I have already used some of them at other forums.

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01-22-2008, 01:14 PM	#771
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews? What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

01-22-2008, 02:26 PM	#775
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	If Israel is proof of Yahweh, then what a weak little god Yahweh is to not give them a better place in the world. The Arabs have gotten a better deal out of their god - rich oil fields worth billions...

01-22-2008, 02:38 PM	#777
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	If you think that a post violates a rule or is disruptive, please use the report post button. I gather that JS is reposting material because he thinks that you haven't responded. I gather you have no more to say - that's why I propose closing the thread.

01-22-2008, 02:42 PM	#778
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	Israel is currently fulfilling many bible prophecies. Many bible prophecies indicate that Jerusalem will be a source of concern for all nations. There are also the prophecies of the Jews returning from wandering from the nations. Yes there are still may Jews outside of Israel but this would indicate that the prophecy is still pending total fulfillment. There is the promise of the Land to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel. These are all historical fact despite the arguments. Some called the return on Israel in 1948 a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy. This neglect the fact that God frequently uses military and politics to fulfill his prophecies. There are many examples of this in the Old Testament including God using Nebby to discipline Israel.

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