Paul2

Again, I don't feel that by the government recognizing that 85% of the population believe in a god the government is 'being a theocracy.'

Unfortunatly, in a Democracy, public things are taylored to the majority. That's how they get votes. So if a few have to get shit on to make the majority happy, it will happen.

I'm not in politics, but i know enough about it to know that you don't "go against the flow" unless you expect to make some waves. Side note, maybe i'm the odd one out, but i haven't heard or said the pledge since grade school, and i'm fairly open about my lack of belief and i've not had any issues at all.

Words are just words. It's the context and how they're used that gets you into trouble. Again, i don't think that the context of "under god" is so bad that 50 years later we have to bicker about it in court.

cjack

Then I guess the pledge should be re-written to read "one nation, which the majority of people believe is under god, so fuck the minority..."

:huh:

crazyfingers

Some will and some won't. Does it not bother you that the government is telling a kid what religious opinion to have?

Both. Placing it there was wrong and having the teacher lead the kids in it is wrong.

The pledge says that this is "one nation, under God". It presupposed that a god exists and therefor says that a god exists. There is no way around that.

That 85% (or whatever percent) of the US population believes in a god is irrlevent to whether it's appropriate for the government to presume to tell all school kids that one does exist.

Shake

One other thing that people always seem to get mixed up on is that government does not cater to the minority, but it has to protect the rights of the minority. Minority groups are just as entitled to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" as anyone else.

Also, I just read that Newdow is getting some new ammo in his fight.

dancer_rnb

The government may be pushing Bad Theology. Just because the population wants to say it is under god does not make it so. What if god dislikes trinitarians and likes unitarians?

Added - The government should not be pushing any particular belief, especially if it is contrary to what I believe....... :devil3:

Cross_

Excluding minorities is a great idea for a unifying pledge. Let's see, according to the last census data the USA consists of ca. 80% whites, so how about "one nation of whites, under god" ?
Certainly covers the majority of people and why would any non-white people make a fuss about that ?

Mathew Goldstein

Government has no business equating monotheism with good citizenship and patriotism. Majority opinion is no justification for such hubris. Democratic government provides equal standing for all to participate equally without prejudice while the Pledge with the uG phrase is placing atheists outside the civic community. There is a conflict between these two results.

A happy majority can refrain from utilizing the government to endorse and promote today's majority religious belief as was the case in this context prior to 1954. Imagine an of, for, and by atheists and polytheists no less than monotheist kind of government. If such inclusiveness makes some prejudiced people unhappy then too bad.

I don't think an environment where being in the minority equates with making waves is a positive environment. A person's belief that the world is suprenatural or natural should not be misutilized as a measure of that person's character or patriotism.

It is written into law and part of a government sponsored ritual for children. That is a bad context.

themistocles

http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/NoPledge/images/varvel.jpg

Astinus

I don't agree with public schools saying the Pledge every morning even without "under God" in it. Any form of indoctrination shouldn't be allowed. If people want to be loyal to their country, they can do it on their own time. If people want to be religious, again, they can do it on their own time.

Cross_

@Astinus: I remember that saluting the flag or pledging allegiance was standard operating procedure in former east block countries. It's quite baffling to see the same nationalism in a more democratic environment. Unfortunately there is no way to get rid of this type of indoctrination, whereas removing god might stand a chance.
The mantra (or "framing") should be a return to the original pledge. Many silly people think that the current court battles are about creating a new pledge rather than restoring the original prior to McCarthyism.