SLD

Some excellent points there Cleopatra. I would not blame Western Anti-semitism on Christianity so much as I would argue that the Gospels reflect the Anti-Semitism of their day. While it is a bit strong to say that the Jews were the Al-Qaeda of their day, they were indeed viewed as odd and wicked by much of the Roman empire. Before Christianity came into being there are numerous examples of it. When Caligula was in power a delegation of Jewish leaders went to him to discuss their concerns over Roman insensitivity to their religion and the potential for violence in the region. He pretty much ignored their entreaties, asking them silly questions, like: "Why don't you eat pork?" In the early 50's Claudius expelled them from Rome.

Then of course comes the Jewish revolt and the destruction of Jerusalem. It is shortly after this that the Gospels are written. Why then do they place the blame of Deicide on the Jews? Simple: they were trying to distance themselves from Jews who are revolting and to protect themselves from further attacks. Nero wants to blame the great fire on Jews but can't afford to antagonize the entire Jewish population of Rome; so he picks on a small sect that he considers to be part of the Jews. After all their original leader was Jewish (and probably a trouble making Jew at that).

The gospels then are written as a sort of defense against further persecution by the authorities. It appears to have worked. While I'm sure some persecution continued we have no record of persecution from Nero's time until Pliny the Younger's letter in the early 100's. During this time, Christianity spreads quite rapidly. Christianity owes its survival to being anti-semitic.

Allright that's my 2 cents.

SLD

SLD

You're Welcome. And one more (although not from the gospels):

I Thessalonians Chapter 2:

[14] For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
[15] Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

doubtingt

All monotheism is inherently anti-nonbelievers.
This is no accident. These religions are largely created
to use the power of the god concept to enshrine and justify
outgroup oppression.

In the Old testament non-believers are wiped out in genocides.

The Gospels simply add a new Chapter and redraws the boundaries on whose is "out" and who is "in".
Believing in the OT god is no longer enough, you must also believe that JC was God incarnate.

Since modern day Jews are largely defined by their lack of this belief, then of course the Gospels and Xtianity is inherently anti-semitic. But the Gospels are anti all nonbelievers in JC.

Toto

I attended a debate on the Resurrection between William Lane Craig and Ludemann (the thread is here. There is a book on a similar debate on the east coast here.)

The debate was sponsored by Campus Crusade for Christ, which tried to cast Ludemann in the role of "atheist" but he did not use that term for himself - he calls himself a "post-Christian." The role of Christianity in the holocaust was obviously a matter of central concern to him, and was a factor in pushing him away from Christian orthodoxy.

You can find material on his expulsion on his homepage or here

edited to add link to old thread

SLD

The Gospels are not just anti all nonbelievers. They absolve the Roman non believers and place the blame squarely for deicide on the Jews. The I Thessalonians quote above shows it even more clearly. The gospels single out the Jews for special treatment.

SLD

Tortie Cat

Hello again!

I've been a bit busy these last few months so hence the absence!

The article I read in The Observer newspaper mentioned that Hutton Gibson reckoned that Vatican Two had been ?a Masonic plot backed by the Jews?!

I do know that I went rapidly off Mel Gibson after reading a biog of him. The biog mentioned his father?s weird religious beliefs and how these affected the entire family. it also mentioned that Hutton became the Secretary of the Latin Mass Society just after the family moved to Australia. It was this society that challenged Pope Paul VI?s authority to amend a rite that had been enshrined by the Council of Trent ?in perpetuity?.

I did a quick web search and came up with the following

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/...fm?recnum=2651

http://www.cmri.org/sedevac.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...%2Fwmass21.xml

Looks like Mr Gibson may well belong to one of these sects since they seem to blame everything on Vatican Two and/or the Jews!


TC

PS For further info on Mel's Dad's weird and downright nasty ideas. Just type in "Hutton Gibson" on a Google search!