Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SLD · 02-25-2004, 06:10 PM

In another list serv I have argued that it is not Mel Gibson who is anti-semitic so much as it is the Gospels themselves.

Of course the Christians are now after me for saying something so religiously incorrect.

However, IIRC, the liberal interpretation of the Gospels as not anti-semitic is a fairly new one and that Christianity, through out its history has been gleefully interpreted in such anti-Semitism. But does anyone have any specific historical quotes, or articles to back this claim up?

SLD

lpetrich · 02-25-2004, 06:23 PM

I wonder if the writers of the Gospels still thought of themselves as being Jews. They could then have meant those in the Jewish community that had turned their back on their Messiah, instead of Jews in general. However, the Jewish communities of later centuries were successors of those Jesus-rejectors.

Also, in Matthew, a lynch mob says "May his blood be upon us and on our children", meaning that they accept guilt. However, experience with more recent lynch mobs suggests that a lynch mob would more likely say "Death to Jesus!!!" and be unrepentant and defensive.

Roland · 02-25-2004, 06:38 PM

Yea, if that isn't a manufactured line, I don't know what is.

Calzaer · 02-25-2004, 10:45 PM

Try "the anti-semitism of Christianity". How can a group of people say "Ya know what Hitler did to you? Well, God is gonna do it worse because you didn't believe us when we told you that everything your people have ever believed has been wrong. Sucks to be y'all." and NOT be thought of as anti-semetic?

Amaleq13 · 02-26-2004, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLD
In another list serv I have argued that it is not Mel Gibson who is anti-semitic so much as it is the Gospels themselves.

I agree that the sources for story he chose to put on film arguably contain anti-semitic views but he did choose to create the film as it stands. I also have trouble ignoring the fact that his father is a raving lunatic in that he ascribes to Holocaustic denial and notions of Jewish conspiracies for world domination.

Apples often fall far from the tree but do any rotten trees produce healthy apples? After all, he has yet to denounce any of the idiotic claims his father has publicly asserted.

Tortie Cat · 02-26-2004, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaleq13
I agree that the sources for story he chose to put on film arguably contain anti-semitic views but he did choose to create the film as it stands. I also have trouble ignoring the fact that his father is a raving lunatic in that he ascribes to Holocaustic denial and notions of Jewish conspiracies for world domination.

Apples often fall far from the tree but do any rotten trees produce healthy apples? After all, he has yet to denounce any of the idiotic claims his father has publicly asserted.

I read that Messrs Gibson Snr and Jnr are members of a [heretical] Catholic sect that does not acknowledge the present Pope, refutes Vatican 2, and still conducts its services in Latin.

Good job ole Torquemada ain't around! He'd have had 'em both sizzling by now!

TC

Amaleq13 · 02-26-2004, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tortie Cat
I read that Messrs Gibson Snr and Jnr are members of a [heretical] Catholic sect that does not acknowledge the present Pope, refutes Vatican 2, and still conducts its services in Latin.

Tortie Cat! Long time, no read. Glad to do so.

I just learned about their odd version of the Catholic faith. I hadn't heard it was limited to the present pope, though. That makes a little more sense than denying the position entirely which is what I had heard.

So, do they reject all popes since Latin was dropped or what? The "true church" has been abducted by heretics, according to them?

Plognark · 02-26-2004, 10:52 AM

Well, I wish I had a transcript or a link, but Howard Stern played an interview with Mel's dad. He was saying how the holocaust of WW2 is a huge exageration, because the ovens and gas chambers couldn't possibly have been used to kill people. It wasn't "technically feasible".

I guess he missed the Nazi footage of emaciated jew bodies being dumped by the hundreds into open pits or the semi-intact human skulls they pulled from the ashes of the ovens, or the stockpiled gold fillings ripped from people's teeth before they murdered them.

Toto · 02-26-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amaleq13
. . . The "true church" has been abducted by heretics, according to them?

or Jews and Freemasons.

The LA Times Magazine has a thorough article on Gibson's heresy Beyond the Trappings - requires subscription.

There are three different factions of Traditional Catholics. All reject the modern liberal trends in the church, but some still accept the current Pope. They reject Vatican II, mass in English, etc., and they think that the Jews killed Christ.

Quote:

The pamphlets�and Father Ward�blame the changes on ecumenism, the tenet of Vatican II that holds that all religions have merit. Ward tells me that the church adjusted the liturgy "to accommodate Protestants," and points accusingly at one of the brochures, toward a photograph of six Protestant ministers who he says advised the Vatican II council. It's a photo that other traditionalist priests will show me as well.

This kind of talk led to Lefebvre's break with Rome. But the Society of St. Pius X has not rejected John Paul II's position as the legitimate head of the Catholic Church�as many traditional groups, called sedevacantists, after the Latin for "the seat is empty," have. Still, it takes some interesting logic to embrace the pope and simultaneously reject his church.

. . .

"We are defending the traditions of the church�and that's his job. Are we obedient? We are obedient to all of the popes. Not just this pope, but all popes. And if this pope is in contradiction to all the other popes, we have to obey the old popes. Follow the logic. What is obedience? If a parent tells a child to steal, a child can't obey. That would be excessive obedience. There are higher laws. Virtue stands in the middle."

Ward looks back down from the portrait. "We accept that he's the pope. We just think he's weak. That's sad. But it's nothing new."

. . .

Sedevanantists have a web site - www.sedevacantist.org - and if you read through it you might figure out why they think that the current Pope is not legitimate and the "seat is empty," or check Wikipaedia:

Quote:

Sedevacantism

Sedevacantism is the belief that the office of pope of the Roman Catholic Church is currently vacant. Sedevacantists are a traditional Catholic segment of Catholicism who insist that recent Popes are heretics for introducing the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, particularly for replacing the Tridentine Roman Missal and its order of Mass with a new one and allowing the celebration of the Mass in the vernacular instead of Latin. Their conclusion is based to some extent on the decree of papal infallibility of the First Vatican Council. If a pope promulgates heresy, it is reasoned, he lacks infallibility and thus the office of Pope.

Other sedevacantists argue that some Catholic popes carried out actions that would not be carried out by true popes. Some argue that Pope Paul VI (r: 1963-1978) by abandoning the wearing of the papal crown (called the Papal Tiara) was showing that he was not a valid pope, they arguing that no true pope would have refused to wear the traditional symbol of the papacy. The decision of Pope John Paul I (r: August-September 1978) to abandon the Papal Coronation altogether is seen by such groups in a similar light. One breakaway sedevacantist group, the United States-based true Catholic Church claims that Pope John XXIII (r: 1958-1963) joined the Freemasons in 1935, an act that if true would have earned automatic excommunication and so made him ineligible for the papacy. Other sedevacanists noted that Pope John Paul II (r: 1978-present) declined to take the traditional papal oath and so in their theory was not a valid pope.

. . .

RED DAVE · 02-26-2004, 12:28 PM

Quote:

May his blood be upon us and on our children

I remember discussing this quote in Hebrew School when I was a kid. It was pointed out by my teacher that not Jew at that time would have the right to say that. Only the king could speak for the whole people, and there was no anointed king at that time (Jesus notwithstanding).

RED DAVE

02-25-2004, 06:10 PM	#1
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	The AntiSemitism of the Gospels In another list serv I have argued that it is not Mel Gibson who is anti-semitic so much as it is the Gospels themselves. Of course the Christians are now after me for saying something so religiously incorrect. However, IIRC, the liberal interpretation of the Gospels as not anti-semitic is a fairly new one and that Christianity, through out its history has been gleefully interpreted in such anti-Semitism. But does anyone have any specific historical quotes, or articles to back this claim up? SLD

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02-25-2004, 06:23 PM	#2
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I wonder if the writers of the Gospels still thought of themselves as being Jews. They could then have meant those in the Jewish community that had turned their back on their Messiah, instead of Jews in general. However, the Jewish communities of later centuries were successors of those Jesus-rejectors. Also, in Matthew, a lynch mob says "May his blood be upon us and on our children", meaning that they accept guilt. However, experience with more recent lynch mobs suggests that a lynch mob would more likely say "Death to Jesus!!!" and be unrepentant and defensive.

02-25-2004, 06:38 PM	#3
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	Yea, if that isn't a manufactured line, I don't know what is.

02-25-2004, 10:45 PM	#4
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Try "the anti-semitism of Christianity". How can a group of people say "Ya know what Hitler did to you? Well, God is gonna do it worse because you didn't believe us when we told you that everything your people have ever believed has been wrong. Sucks to be y'all." and NOT be thought of as anti-semetic?

02-26-2004, 10:52 AM	#8
Plognark Contributor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14,952	Well, I wish I had a transcript or a link, but Howard Stern played an interview with Mel's dad. He was saying how the holocaust of WW2 is a huge exageration, because the ovens and gas chambers couldn't possibly have been used to kill people. It wasn't "technically feasible". I guess he missed the Nazi footage of emaciated jew bodies being dumped by the hundreds into open pits or the semi-intact human skulls they pulled from the ashes of the ovens, or the stockpiled gold fillings ripped from people's teeth before they murdered them.

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