Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 10-04-2006, 07:14 AM

I'd like to see a good compilation nand comparison of the writings about, and evidences for, Jesus as compared to the writings about and evidences for other ancient figures, such as Homer, Romulus and Remus, Herecles, Appoloneus, etc.

What are the arguments for an against the historicity of these other figures, what are the types of things said about these other figures, how were these other figures viewed during ancient times, etc.

For example:

Quote:

Then a few voices began to proclaim Romulus's divinity; the cry was taken up, and at last every man present hailed him as a god and son of a god, and prayed to him to be for ever gracious and to protect his children. However, even on this great occasion there were, I believe, a few dissentients who secretly maintained that the king had been torn to pieces by the senators. At all events the story got about, though in veiled terms; but it was not important, as awe, and admiration for Romulus's greatness, set the seal upon the other version of his end, which was, moreover, given further credit by the timely action of a certain Julius Proculus, a man, we are told, honored for his wise counsel on weighty matters. The loss of the king had left the people in an uneasy mood and suspicious of the senators, and Proculus, aware of the prevalent temper, conceived the shrewd idea of addressing the Assembly. Romulus, he declared, the father of our City descended from heaven at dawn this morning and appeared to me. In awe and reverence I stood before him, praying for permission to look upon his face without sin. "Go", he said, "and tell the Romans that by heaven's will my Rome shall be capital of the world. Let them learn to be soldiers. Let them know, and teach their children, that no power on earth can stand against Roman arms". Having spoken these words, he was taken up again into the sky.
- Livy; The Early History of Rome, 29 BCE

spin · 10-04-2006, 11:10 AM

(Pardon me for saying so, but I'm amazed just how far the "t" in "Hisoritcal" is from its correct position.)

inps

Amaleq13 · 10-04-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

(Pardon me for saying so, but I'm amazed just how far the "t" in "Hisoritcal" is from its correct position.)

inps

Corrected though I'm less amazed since I measure the "distance" as that of a single, misfired synapse.

Malachi151 · 10-04-2006, 11:35 AM

What can I say, I'm not a good typer. I also can't play piano or any other musical instrument, except drums, and basically have crappy finger control, plus I'm dyslexic.

Now back to the issue

Clivedurdle · 10-04-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

In Greek mythology, Heracles or Herakles ("glory of Hera", �*ρα + κλ�*ος, Ἡρακλῆς) was a divine hero, the son of Zeus and Alcmene, stepson of Amphitryon[1] and great-grandson of Perseus. He was the greatest of the Greek heroes, a paragon of masculinity, the ancestor of royal clans and a champion of the Olympian order against chthonic monsters. In Rome and the modern West, he is known as Hercules, with whom the later Roman Emperors, in particular Commodus and Maximinus, often identified themselves. The Romans adopted the Greek version of his life and works essentially unchanged, but added anecdotal detail of their own, some of it linking the hero with the geography of the Central Mediterranean. Details of cult were adapted to Rome as well.
Extraordinary strength, courage, ingenuity, and sexual prowess with both males and females were among his characteristic attributes. Although he was not as clever as the likes of Odysseus or Nestor, Heracles used his wits on several occasions when his strength did not suffice, such as when laboring for King Augeias, wrestling the giant Antaeus, or tricking Atlas into taking the sky back onto his shoulders. Together with Hermes he was the patron and protector of gymnasia and palaestrae.[2] His iconographic attributes are the lion skin and the club. These qualities did not prevent him from being regarded as a playful figure who used games to relax from his labors and played a great deal with children.[3] By conquering dangerous archaic forces he is said to have "made the world safe for mankind" and to be its benefactor.[4]

I thought Heracles was generally agreed to be myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

Of course, everyone could be mistaken and maybe it is time for someone to write in search of the historical hercules.

lpetrich · 10-04-2006, 11:52 AM

Malachi151, I had started a thread on a closely related subject: Lord Raglan Mythic Hero Problems, where I asked which well-documented people fit it well.

I discussed in it some problems with Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero profile; one of them was that that profile does not mention prophecy fulfillment, a common part of mythic-hero biographies. And I gave several examples in that thread. I also noted that Jesus Christ fits it very well.

Malachi151 · 10-04-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I thought Heracles was generally agreed to be myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

Of course, everyone could be mistaken and maybe it is time for someone to write in search of the historical hercules.

We all agree that he is a myth now. I'm talking about he, and others, were discussed and viewed then.

What is the case, based on ancient sources, for Heracles being a real person as compared to Jesus?

GakuseiDon · 10-04-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

We all agree that he is a myth now. I'm talking about he, and others, were discussed and viewed then.

What is the case, based on ancient sources, for Heracles being a real person as compared to Jesus?

AFAIK Hercules was generally believed to have been a real person, and dated around the time of the fall of Troy. Plutarch writes that Lycurgus was descended from Hercules. Tertullian refers to Hercules as someone who was believed to have "passed from the human state to the divine".

Malachi151 · 10-04-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

AFAIK Hercules was generally believed to have been a real person, and dated around the time of the fall of Troy. Plutarch writes that Lycurgus was descended from Hercules. Tertullian refers to Hercules as someone who was believed to have "passed from the human state to the divine".

Right, this is what I'm looking for. Good work, now we just need a bunch more

mountainman · 10-04-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'd like to see a good compilation nand comparison of the writings about, and evidences for, Jesus as compared to the writings about and evidences for other ancient figures, such as Homer, Romulus and Remus, Herecles, Appoloneus, etc.

What are the arguments for an against the historicity of these other figures, what are the types of things said about these other figures, how were these other figures viewed during ancient times, etc.

Hi Malachi151,

IMO comparitive historicity is enhanced where the two figures
being compared are purported to have lived in the same era.
Your ancient figures are all over the chronological ball-park,
with respect to Jesus. As Apollonius is purported to have been
born in (more or less according to tradition) the same year (-4BCE)
as Jesus, then would not such a comparison have far more
relevance?

Thus I'd simply confine myself to Apollonius (presumably you
are referring to Apollonius of Tyana).

See this thread: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=174300
Comparitive historicity (Apollonius of Tyana c.f. Jesus of Nazareth)

Here I wrote:

Richard Carrier seems to utilise the following elements
as criteria by which a gauge of historicity could be obtained ...

1. Were these people an author of writings?
2. Were they a subject of biographies or hagiographies?
3. Are there inscriptions, coins, statues or other physical archeological
evidence to substantiate their existence?
4. Are they the subject of, or mentioned by extant historians?
5. Are they the subject of, or mentioned by extant writers?

Can anyone advise if this list of elements would be sufficient
to conduct a review between the two "historical figures" in
the subject line?

In regard to the first element suggested by Carrier,
we can examine their known writings:

CRITERIA 1. Were these people an author of writings?

a) Jesus: According to eye-witness and translator, Eusebius, Jesus
wrote a letter to the King Agbar, and Eusebius quotes this in HE.
AFAIK, Jesus is purported to have written nothing else.

b) Apollonius: According to a number of sources, Apollonius was
the author of a number of books, and writings, and letters, some
of which are still extant. I have summarised all these at this page:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...of%20Tyana.htm

CRITERIA 2. Were they a subject of biographies or hagiographies?

And so the project goes ....

If you (or anyone else) are interested in doing a joint project,
let me know, as I'd be interested in seeing this through to a
completion sometime.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown
Authors of Antiquity
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

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10-04-2006, 11:10 AM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	(Pardon me for saying so, but I'm amazed just how far the "t" in "Hisoritcal" is from its correct position.) inps

10-04-2006, 11:35 AM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	What can I say, I'm not a good typer. I also can't play piano or any other musical instrument, except drums, and basically have crappy finger control, plus I'm dyslexic. Now back to the issue

10-04-2006, 11:52 AM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Malachi151, I had started a thread on a closely related subject: Lord Raglan Mythic Hero Problems, where I asked which well-documented people fit it well. I discussed in it some problems with Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero profile; one of them was that that profile does not mention prophecy fulfillment, a common part of mythic-hero biographies. And I gave several examples in that thread. I also noted that Jesus Christ fits it very well.

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