Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Davka · 06-28-2011, 07:56 PM

The Hebrew Bible teaches annihilation after death. The Greek Bible teaches Hell.

The concept of an afterlife has never been very big in Judaism, and was far less so in OT times.

dockeen · 06-28-2011, 08:10 PM

Quote:

The Hebrew Bible teaches annihilation after death.

Dumb question* here sir. Does this mean annihilation in an active sense, or merely
a cessation of existence at death?

*Yes, there are, trust me, I have asked them

Davka · 06-28-2011, 08:19 PM

Cessation of existence. The body goes back to the dust from which it came, but slowly and naturally.

dockeen · 06-28-2011, 08:22 PM

Thanks. That is what I *thought* I knew, but then again, I seem to remember
being young a decent looking once too...

Sheshbazzar · 06-28-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

There is no annihilation in the NT.

The NT:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.(Matt 10:28)

?

Mt 10:28 is addressed in post #234.

Quote:

If any man defile the temple of G-d, him shall G-d destroy; for the temple of G-d is holy, which [temple] you are. (1 Cor 3:17)

?

Greek word here is phtheiro, which means to destroy by corrupting. In context, 1Co 3:17:

"If a man defile (Gr. phtheiro) the temple of God" (local church--mar it by leading it away from holiness of life and purity of doctrine),
him shall God destroy (Gr. phtheiro--retributive destruction of one who is guilty of the sin of phtheiro).
The meaning of destruction, etc. is addressed in post #234.

Quote:

Your post in #234 did nothing to address the obvious meaning of these verses.

And how about this bit of inspired Scripture;

My post #234 regarded annihilation in the NT.

Annihilation in the sense that shriverja uses it, does not mean destruction of the body, or even reducing it to dust.
It means destruction of the being of one's spirit, so that there is no entity in eternity.

Annihilation, in the sense that shriverja uses it, is not in the NT.

Nor is that the meaning in your verses below, where it refers to destruction of the body.

How nice of you to admit that that is what these verses do indicate, destruction as in ' they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts."
You of course, under the spell of Christian 'doctrine', must insist that the "souls" ('ones spirit'-'entity') of the wicked will continue to live on and on after their bodies have been destroyed.
Yet even the NT tells you;

Quote:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Which certainly implies an as permanent and final ending, as much to the 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity'), as to the body. There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. (Psalm 37:10)

Or this one: "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." (Psalm 37:20)

Or: "He preserveth not the life of the wicked:" (Job 36:6)

But you are of the persuasion that He will preserve the life ('soul'-'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked alive for eternity, In resistance to the words of THE SCRIPTURES of truth;
This is the active Christian version of the same old lie that Satan told Eve in The Garden "You surely will not die the death;" (You will live forever....suure you will... :devil1

Quote:

Or: "But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off." (Psalm 37:38)

NO future life of 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') or body for the wicked; both 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') and body to be utterly destroyed in Gehenna."
Total annihilation of "soul" ('ones 'spirit'-'entity') and body"; There will be NO wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Or: Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. (Psalm 104:35)

"NO more" means "NO MORE!" Finis! THE END!; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or:

Quote:

YHWH preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy. (Psalm 145:20)

"both soul and body in Gehenna."; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or:

Quote:

When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, (Prov 10:25)

"gone" to be 'no more', forevermore; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or;

Quote:

"For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out." (Prov 24:20)

NO continuing 'reward' or 'punishment' either in the flesh or out of the flesh; 'The candle (life force, 'soul'-'ones's 'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked 'put out' snuffed out -"both soul and body"- being permanently destroyed (utterly snuffed out) in Gehenna"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Or: "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says YHWH of "Hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. (Mal 4:1)

"burned up", "consumed into smoke", leaving "them neither root nor branch." nor "soul or body." total annihilation, "soul and body"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul','spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts. (Mal 4:3)

But because you can put a 'creative' spin on interpretation of the Greek word for 'destruction', HE and HIS WORDS so clearly given in THE SCRIPTURES must be wrong, right simon?
Just like Eve in The Garden, you are choosing to believe Satan's old lie that YHWH will allow those who ignore His words to in some 'spiritual' form or fashion continue to live on forever. Your argument is not with me, but with Him, and with His everlasting Word.

WHO gave you this 'New Testement?' is not the Maker of this New Testament, authoritative above writing? and any man's Greek interpretations?
Your 'Christian doctrine' as it now stands, rejects and makes a lie out of many of HIS words, and His eternal Laws.
Being so decieved, you may deceive yourself and others, but you cannot deceive Him whose words you labor to pervert and abuse;
You had better pray that there is no YHWH Elohim -'LORD God'- nor living Judge to catch you out, and give you your 'reward' for your evil.
There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Do you really perceive which end of that "Rod of Iron" you are laboring to be on simon?

.

schriverja · 06-29-2011, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Mt 10:28 is addressed in post #234. Greek word here is phtheiro, which means to destroy by corrupting. In context, 1Co 3:17:

"If a man defile (Gr. phtheiro) the temple of God" (local church--mar it by leading it away from holiness of life and purity of doctrine),
him shall God destroy (Gr. phtheiro--retributive destruction of one who is guilty of the sin of phtheiro).
The meaning of destruction, etc. is addressed in post #234.My post #234 regarded annihilation in the NT.

Annihilation in the sense that shriverja uses it, does not mean destruction of the body, or even reducing it to dust.
It means destruction of the being of one's spirit, so that there is no entity in eternity.

Annihilation, in the sense that shriverja uses it, is not in the NT.

Nor is that the meaning in your verses below, where it refers to destruction of the body.

How nice of you to admit that that is what these verses do indicate, destruction as in ' they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts."
You of course, under the spell of Christian 'doctrine', must insist that the "souls" ('ones spirit'-'entity') of the wicked will continue to live on and on after their bodies have been destroyed.
Yet even the NT tells you;

Which certainly implies an as permanent and final ending, as much to the 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity'), as to the body. There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

But you are of the persuasion that He will preserve the life ('soul'-'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked alive for eternity, In resistance to the words of THE SCRIPTURES of truth;
This is the active Christian version of the same old lie that Satan told Eve in The Garden "You surely will not die the death;" (You will live forever....suure you will... :devil1

NO future life of 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') or body for the wicked; both 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') and body to be utterly destroyed in Gehenna."
Total annihilation of "soul" ('ones 'spirit'-'entity') and body"; There will be NO wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

"NO more" means "NO MORE!" Finis! THE END!; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or: "both soul and body in Gehenna."; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or:
"gone" to be 'no more', forevermore; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or;
NO continuing 'reward' or 'punishment' either in the flesh or out of the flesh; 'The candle (life force, 'soul'-'ones's 'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked 'put out' snuffed out -"both soul and body"- being permanently destroyed (utterly snuffed out) in Gehenna"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

"burned up", "consumed into smoke", leaving "them neither root nor branch." nor "soul or body." total annihilation, "soul and body"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul','spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts. (Mal 4:3)

But because you can put a 'creative' spin on interpretation of the Greek word for 'destruction', HE and HIS WORDS so clearly given in THE SCRIPTURES must be wrong, right simon?
Just like Eve in The Garden, you are choosing to believe Satan's old lie that YHWH will allow those who ignore His words to in some 'spiritual' form or fashion continue to live on forever. Your argument is not with me, but with Him, and with His everlasting Word.

WHO gave you this 'New Testement?' is not the Maker of this New Testament, authoritative above writing? and any man's Greek interpretations?
Your 'Christian doctrine' as it now stands, rejects and makes a lie out of many of HIS words, and His eternal Laws.
Being so decieved, you may deceive yourself and others, but you cannot deceive Him whose words you labor to pervert and abuse;
You had better pray that there is no YHWH Elohim -'LORD God'- nor living Judge to catch you out, and give you your 'reward' for your evil.
There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Do you really perceive which end of that "Rod of Iron" you are laboring to be on simon?

.

Great post! To reiterate the point I was trying to make: Different authors in the Bible seem to have different views regarding the afterlife, resurrection of the body, whether non-believers are outright and utterly destroyed* or tormented endlessly. The OT and at least parts of the NT seem to disagree here...

Probably why many Christians** today don't believe in Hell, while others think it is fully supported.

*(as I have pointed out, this is what I meant by 'annihilated', whether or not the exact greek word for 'annihilate' is there wasn't a claim I made, the phrasing of key passages sure seems to indicate total destruction)

**Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, Mormons, etc...

simon kole · 06-29-2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

There is no annihilation in the NT.

The NT:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.(Matt 10:28)

?

Mt 10:28 is addressed in post #234.

Quote:

If any man defile the temple of G-d, him shall G-d destroy; for the temple of G-d is holy, which [temple] you are. (1 Cor 3:17)

?

Greek word here is phtheiro, which means to destroy by corrupting. In context, 1Co 3:17:

"If a man defile (Gr. phtheiro) the temple of God" (local church--mar it by leading it away from holiness of life and purity of doctrine),
him shall God destroy (Gr. phtheiro--retributive destruction of one who is guilty of the sin of phtheiro).
The meaning of destruction, etc. is addressed in post #234.

Quote:

Your post in #234 did nothing to address the obvious meaning of these verses.

And how about this bit of inspired Scripture;

My post #234 regarded annihilation in the NT.

Annihilation in the sense that shriverja uses it, does not mean destruction of the body, or even reducing it to dust.
It means destruction of the being of one's spirit, so that there is no entity in eternity.

Annihilation, in the sense that shriverja uses it, is not in the NT.

Nor is that the meaning in your verses below, where it refers to destruction of the body.

How nice of you to admit that that is what these verses do indicate, destruction as in ' they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts."
You of course, under the spell of Christian 'doctrine', must insist that the "souls" ('ones spirit'-'entity') of the wicked will continue to live on and on after their bodies have been destroyed.
Yet even the NT tells you;

Quote:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Which certainly implies an as permanent and final ending, as much to the 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity'), as to the body. There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

As I've stated previously, Mt 10:28 is addressed in post #234, where the meaning of "destroy" (anything) does not mean annihilation.

And regarding the following verses from the OT, Christians interpret the OT in light of the new revelation in the NT.
In that light, those verses do not refer to annihilation of the spirit, but of destruction (ruin, loss of well-being) of the spirit, as revealed in the NT, and presented in post #234 here.

Quote:

A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. (Psalm 37:10)

Or this one: "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of YHWH shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." (Psalm 37:20)

Or: "He preserveth not the life of the wicked:" (Job 36:6)

Quote:

But you are of the persuasion that He will preserve the life ('soul'-'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked alive for eternity, In resistance to the words of THE SCRIPTURES of truth;
This is the active Christian version of the same old lie that Satan told Eve in The Garden "You surely will not die the death;" (You will live forever....suure you will... :devil1

Quote:

Or: "But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off." (Psalm 37:38)

Quote:

NO future life of 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') or body for the wicked; both 'soul' ('spirit'-'entity') and body to be utterly destroyed in Gehenna."
Total annihilation of "soul" ('ones 'spirit'-'entity') and body"; There will be NO wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Or: Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. (Psalm 104:35)

Quote:

"NO more" means "NO MORE!" Finis! THE END!; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Quote:

Or: YHWH preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy. (Psalm 145:20)

"both soul and body in Gehenna."; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or: When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, (Prov 10:25)

"gone" to be 'no more', forevermore; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or: "For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out." (Prov 24:20)

NO continuing 'reward' or 'punishment' either in the flesh or out of the flesh; 'The candle (life force, 'soul'-'ones's 'spirit'-'entity') of the wicked 'put out' snuffed out -"both soul and body"- being permanently destroyed (utterly snuffed out) in Gehenna"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Or: "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says YHWH of "Hosts," That will leave them neither root nor branch. (Mal 4:1).

"burned up", "consumed into smoke", leaving "them neither root nor branch." nor "soul or body." total annihilation, "soul and body"; There will be no wicked one's 'soul','spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

"Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says YHWH of Hosts. (Mal 4:3)

But because you can put a 'creative' spin on interpretation of the Greek word for 'destruction', HE and HIS WORDS so clearly given in THE SCRIPTURES must be wrong, right simon?

God's words so clearly given in the revelation of the OT, are correctly understood in the new revelation of the NT, where the Greek word for "destroy" the soul does not mean annihilation.

The OT in the light of the NT is the principle upon which I address the Scriptures, and is a principle you do not accept, so I cannot address those verses on your terms. I can address them only in the terms of the whole Bible.

Quote:

Just like Eve in The Garden, you are choosing to believe Satan's old lie that YHWH will allow those who ignore His words to in some 'spiritual' form or fashion continue to live on forever. Your argument is not with me, but with Him, and with His everlasting Word.

WHO gave you this 'New Testement?' is not the Maker of this New Testament, authoritative above writing? and any man's Greek interpretations?
Your 'Christian doctrine' as it now stands, rejects and makes a lie out of many of HIS words, and His eternal Laws.

The Spirit of God the Father and His Son gave the NT, in which is revealed the true meaning and purpose of his OT, and which is a revelation you do not accept.

Quote:

Being so decieved, you may deceive yourself and others, but you cannot deceive Him whose words you labor to pervert and abuse;
You had better pray that there is no YHWH Elohim -'LORD God'- nor living Judge to catch you out, and give you your 'reward' for your evil.
There will be no wicked one's 'soul', 'spirit', or 'entity' in eternity.

Do you really perceive which end of that "Rod of Iron" you are laboring to be on simon?

schriverja · 06-29-2011, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

The OT in the light of the NT is the principle upon which I address the Scriptures, and is a principle you do not accept, so I cannot address those verses on your terms. I can address them only in the terms of the whole Bible.The Spirit of God the Father and His Son gave the NT, in which is revealed the true meaning and purpose of his OT, and which is a revelation you do not accept.

Simon, you are the one claiming "unity of the text". If newer texts obsolete or modify older texts, isn't that evidence against unity??

simon kole · 06-29-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

The OT in the light of the NT is the principle upon which I address the Scriptures, and is a principle you do not accept, so I cannot address those verses on your terms. I can address them only in the terms of the whole Bible.The Spirit of God the Father and His Son gave the NT, in which is revealed the true meaning and purpose of his OT, and which is a revelation you do not accept.

Simon, you are the one claiming "unity of the text". If newer texts obsolete or modify older texts, isn't that evidence against unity??

The Bible, in its own context, which includes both the OT and the NT, is consistent.

When God withdraws his favor of King Saul, that is not an internal Biblical contradiction showing disunity of the Bible.
It is simply further development in the revelation.

God did not reveal everything to Abraham.
A lot of it was not revealed until Moses, and then later the prophets.
And final revelation in its full development ended with the NT.

To correctly understand the meanings and purposes of earlier incomplete-at-that-point revelation, it must be understood in the light of the fully developed and final revelation of the NT.

simon kole · 06-29-2011, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

From the post: Matthew 5:17-20, 19 indicates the Jewish Law/Traditions should be followed as well as Luke 16:17. Hebrew scripture citations that indicate the Jewish Law/Traditions was permanent: Exo 31:16-17, Exo 12:14-17, Mal 3:6-7 and never to be replaced or added to: Deut 4:2, 13:1

Contrast that to Paul's writings that I cited heavily in that post...

Not only Paul, but the letter to the Hebrews reveals the Law is abolished.

In Christianity, OT revelation is understood in the light of latter NT revelation.
The NT explains very clearly the what, the how, and why the OT Levitical law is now obsolete.

This is where we begin to diverge. I think the NT stuff that comes along is an indication of evolution of thought within Judaism and the early forms of Christianity, not a new revelation to shed light on the OT. The OT makes sense without further illumination. It explicitly states that it is a permanent arrangement between God and his chosen people, the Israelites. It explicitly states that it is is not to be replaced (to use your word "obsoleted") or added to. The OT explicitly states that anyone who says otherwise is a false teacher (Deut. 13). That's why Judaism still exists today.

As do the Greek and the Armenians, whom Russia tried to extinguish by destroying millions of them.

Quote:

It (the blood rituals and slavery laws and bizarre rules about all sorts of things) just became harder to swallow for people that were living in a more and more advanced society. Paul was largely responsible for evolving Judaism into a Gentile-friendly movement. And that evolution has continued to this day. Protestantism (into 30,000+ denominations its important to note) evolved from Orthodoxy/Catholicism . Calvinism and Arminianism evolved from prior forms of Christianity, becoming a distinct "species" in the 16th century and later.

I don't that's a sign of new revelation, I think that is evidence that people are responsible for the characteristics and viewpoints of Christianity, not God. A charismatic guy like Paul, or Luther, or Calvin produced their own, very human takes on Christianity and convinced enough people that they're right to get their own sub-following. The divergence of the Christian "species" started pretty much from day 1 with the emergence of groups like the Marcionites, Ebionites, Gnostics, and the like, now mostly extinct...

That's why a relatively static text can be used to justify slavery in one century and decry it in the next. Because society has changed not the book. That's why killing and torturing your neighbors over their religious belief can be justified via the Bible in one century, and dismissed in another century. People reinterpret "God" how they want, God doesn't reveal new things.

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06-28-2011, 07:56 PM	#261
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	The Hebrew Bible teaches annihilation after death. The Greek Bible teaches Hell. The concept of an afterlife has never been very big in Judaism, and was far less so in OT times.

06-28-2011, 08:19 PM	#263
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	Cessation of existence. The body goes back to the dust from which it came, but slowly and naturally.

06-28-2011, 08:22 PM	#264
dockeen Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 9,176	Thanks. That is what I thought I knew, but then again, I seem to remember being young a decent looking once too...

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