aa5874

Emergency!!! We have been Hijacked by Deko Leto. He got something in his hand. I don't know what it is.

Sheshbazzar

It is NOT a story. Jews for centuries had prayed for the coming of the Promised te'shua.
First of all I did not say that it DID happen.

What I stated was;
1. 'there were a lot of wandering preachers during the troubles of the late first early second century CE.'

You will not find many scholars who would be willing to dispute that statement.
But if you wish to, go ahead and provide us with your documented evidence that there WERE NOT ' a lot of wandering preachers during the troubles of the late first early second century CE.'

2. 'Some of them MAY have been named Jesus'

If you can read and comprehend plain English (which you have already proven to be a doubtful proposition)
You will be able to understand that I DID NOT state that any of these 'wandering preachers WAS named Jesus.
So there is NO story here that any wandering preacher WAS named Jesus.
GOT THAT???

3. ... or PERHAPS being the name of Moses' infamous successor, the significant name 'Jesus' (Joshua ='YAH's Deliverer') was attached to one or another who were believed to be the one that would bring 'te'shua ('deliverance', 'salvation', 'victory') to Israel in its time of trouble.[/i]

Again I made NO statement to the effect, nor 'story' that this WAS the case.

Based on a working knowledge of Hebrew, I pointed out that this was 'PERHAPS' how a belief in this name and mythical figure came into being.
I told no 'story' about any such POSSIBLE individual, I provided NO boigraphy, nor any words, acts, events, nor situations regarding this mythical character.
I presented NO Jesus story, or story about any Jesus.
Nor would I as I have repeatedly and clearly stated that there never was any such person as described in the NT.

4. Ones like Justin Martyr and others heard about and repeated.

From the unknown time when these types of 'Jesus is The Christ' stories first began to become orally circulated.
Most reputable and recognised scholars accept that this first began some time in the late 1st century.
The political and religious situations prevalent at that time made it ripe for such a hope to find expression.
Really. That is an interesting question. You buddy Justin believed it began in Jerusalem and was spread from Palestine by twelve illiterate men (would they have needed, or even have been able to use written books?)
Other evidences suggest to scholars that this phenomenon either arose within, or quickly spread and was co-opted by a foreign non-Palestinian, Judaism despising Hellenistic venue. Opinions on that subject are all over the board.
With respect to those that post within this Forum, I see no reason to give any greater weight to your opinions on these matters, than say the well reasoned posts of spin, Stephan Huller, Joe Wallack, Toto, Davka, or any of the many others who have ever ventured to offer any reasonable opinions on these matters.
Most of whom do not feel a need to repetitiously engage in force-feeding this Forum daily on their opinions and assertions.

My sources are a working knowledge of the Hebrew language and ability to read Hebrew texts that date back to at least to the 5th century BCE.
I have studied and learned the Hebrew idioms and their practical usages and applications, I don't need 1st century texts to know with certainty that Jews of the 1st century prayed for the coming of a resurrected Joshua, or that they commonly engaged in midrashim making up imaginative re-hashed stories based upon characters found in, or prophesied within their TaNaKa writings.

NO, YOU ARE!
... AM NOT!
... ARE TOO!

....and on and on and on.....anyone think we are getting anywhere?


. .

aa5874

Well, you are NOT credible. You certainly claimed some things DID happen. You are wasting my time.

You specifically claimed certain things happened during the late first early second century.

Please, get your story straight before you post.

Where are your dated sources from the 1st century for your claims

Sheshbazzar

Nor are you credible when you flatly and without any qualification, make the stupid assertion that there were no 1st century CE Jewish men named Jesus.
With that utterly bogus, false, erronous, and absolutely stupid claim, you are also wasting my time replying to the multiple threads where you have made this asshat claim.

Of course some things DID happen in the 1st century CE. After all the world did not begin in 150 CE.

Jewish men named Jesus most certainly did live in the 1st century, and they did things while they lived in the 1st century.
You have NO LOGICAL or RATIONAL reason to claim that they did not.

I stated that certain things were 'POSSIBLE', likely and 'PERHAPS', ' MAY' have happend. I DID NOT state that they DID happen. Which is not as foolish as you stating assertively that there were NO Jewish men named Jesus in the 1st century, and that NOTHING happened in the late first or early second century.

You ought to work on that, and learn how to read and understand the English language. And then learn how to compose sentences in English that do not mistate whatever you intend to say.

Unlike you, I do not have any imaginary 'story' or claim that there were no first century Jews named 'Jesus' that needs to be gotten straight.
You the one promoting the false, and downright silly foolish claim that there were no Jewish men named Jesus during the 1st century CE.

Why are you continuing to evade confronting this serious objection to your claims?
Is it not the fact that you are aware that there were Jewish men named 'Jesus' during the 1st century CE?
and that openly admitting that fact, will disprove your false contention that there were no Jewish men named Jesus during the 1st century CE?
If you want to keep playing dodge-ball on actually addressing this point in thread after thread, and post after post, you can expect me to continue raising this objection to your 'no 1st century Jesus' claim just as often as you make it.

We have been given an opportunity by this thread split to address and to resolve this matter.
Here is your opportunity to prove that there could not have been any Jewish man known by the name Jesus in the 1st century CE.
I would be interested in your explanation for all of those archaeologically dated 1st century ossuary (bone boxes) with the Hebrew name of Jesus carved into them?
Are you claiming they are all forgeries? That all of the Archaeologists and Paleographers who have dated them to the first century CE are wrong, or are part of a huge christian controlled conspiracy of lying about the name Jesus?

Yes. That is what I wrote. You have simply repeated it, but you have not actually critiqued it, nor demonstrated in any way that any statement made therin is false.


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aa5874

Again, you are NOT credible. You very well know that I did not argue such a thing. You don't seem to realise other people can see what I have written.

It is quite remarkable how you can blatantly make KNOWN erroneous statements without any remorse.

Duvduv

Mountainman, you are making very interesting observations here.

aa5874

Now, anyone familiar with C 14 dating will realise that it has inherent problems with Contamination and does NOT really show when the Text was written only the time period for the age of the material used.

And further Comparisons of C 14 and Paleography for the same Samples show that C14 dates may be EARLIER than Paleography by up to 100 years.

C 14 and Paleography dating using the same Samples tend to show that there is NO real significant advantage between the results. C 14 and Paleography are Equally HARD Evidence.

Sample--4Q267 [C 14] 94-45 BC [Paleography] 50-0 BC

Sample--1QIsa [C 14] 356-103BC [Paleography] 150-125BC


See http://www.csulb.edu/centers/sjco/carbon14.html

Well, tell me if you have Harder evidence for your claims. Please, it would appear to me that even C 14 dates that you yourself have presented do show that the Jesus story was likely to have been known BEFORE the 4th century.

C 14 date range for gJudas is 120 years between c 220-340 CE.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

mountainman

Dating gJudas to the 4th century

(1) The final report by Jull at Arizona Uni is not yet available (since 2005).
(2) There are known problems with it (See the report of Peter Head).
(3) One loose papyri fragment was dated 333 CE (+/- 60yrs) but ignored.
(4) The investigatory team preferred a 4th century date.
(5) gJudas bears great similarity to the Nag Hammadi Codices which are independently dated c.350 CE (cartonage, palaeography)

These five issues can be used to argue for a later 4th century date for gJudas and the story of the "Thirteenth Demon".

There are reasons to believe that the Jesus story was not known before the 4th century