Clivedurdle

At some point, possibly in the second century, but clearly by the time of Ambrose, the equivalent of Orwell's doublespeak won and this caused huge changes, probably assisting the beginnings of the dark ages.

A series of irrational statements were asserted to be true - for example, sons equal to fathers, three in one gods. Worse, assent to these irrational statements became life and death matters.

We tend to look at this history from within this irrational mindset.

Has anyone tracked the development of this way of thinking, its implications and its consequences?

It may enlighten our understanding.

As modern fundamentalism is a reaction to modernism, were these orthodox taliban christian beliefs a reaction to, a co-evolution with, the real success of the philosophers in creating rational frameworks, with real results like concrete, the Parthenon and the Ankylethera Mechanism?

mountainman

Dear Clivedurdle,

We must ask ourselves one day when in ancient history the Romans actually commenced burning and destruction of the preserved literature of the Greek civilisation. For example, we know that Ardashir commenced the buring of the preserved literature of the Parthian civilisation about the year 222 CE. Which Roman started the practice of burning the literature of the Greek civilisation? O wait a minute, I know the answer to this! It was obviously Nero in the first century, when all the action was happening so quickly people forgot to record it.

One (the former) was new, and one (the latter) was old.

It would almost appear as if the non-christian greeks of the empire at this time were making a pagan joke of the christian trinity concept. Good on 'em!

The majesty of the christian emperors was at stake here dont forget. Crimes against the majesty of the emperor were treason. In the fourth century the torture of the upper classes by well-meaning christian inquisitors became a political reality if we are to go by that faithful Ammianus, supported by the Law Codes of Theodosius. (Is this crimes of "lese majesty")


WTF? Are you crazy? No. Nobody at all. Not one single person. Why would anyone want to even think about it? Are you some sort of AI program that's got loose Clivedurdle?


Fat F*****G chance.


Those orthodox taliban christians in the epoch of Constantine had the full backing of the Roman army. Before Constantine it appears christians were very deep underground, waiting for the right season to dig their way out and appear before Constantine, who was on the Road to Rome. It was one of those lucky meetings. The sun was shining, There was a cross in the clouds. Tax-exemptions were in the air. Meanwhile, real estate prices soon plummeted in the east as a result of keen christian investment in weapons of mass destruction:

* the ancient and highly revered Hellenic temples to Asclepius in Aegae, Cilicia etc)
* the Hellenic temple of Venus at Heliopolis
* the Hellenic Sanctuary to Ascelpius at Pergamon
* the Hellenic Sanctuary to Ascelpius at Antioch
* the Hellenic temple of Venus at Heliopolis
* the remaining standing Obelisk (from Karnack/Heliopolis) be ripped from its base
* the ancient and highly revered Hellenic Temple of Venus (Aphrodite) at Aphaca
* the Hellenic Temple of Aphrodite at Heliopolis, Phoenicia
* the Hellenic Temple of Aphrodite at Mamre, near Hebron, Judea
* the Hellenic Temple of Aphrodite at Jerusalem
* the Hellenic Temples of Apollo at Didyma (Priests tortured and executed)
* the Hellenic Temples on Mt. Athos, displacing non-christians


Best wishes,



Pete

Toto

Yes, there has been quite a bit of study here. There have been many people who try to blame Christianity for the dark ages and the fall in living standards when Christianity snuffed out pagan science, and many more who see Christian thinking as a development and refinement of pagan philosophy that eventually led to the scientific revolution and our modern high standards of living in a demon-free world.

I think from your OP that you have exaggerated the success of pagan science. Life in 1st century Rome was fairly nasty, based on slave labor, and without any of the benefits of modern medicine. Pagan science was not advanced enough to threaten anyone's worldview, and not effective enough to be an advertisement for the advantages of an alternative scientific worldview.

And Christians did not invent irrational thinking. They borrowed much of their philosophy from the predominant Platonic / neo-Platonic philosophy of the time.

I think that Richard Carrier's forthcoming PhD thesis on science in the ancient world (not his Jesus Myth book) will answer many of your questions.

Roger Pearse

The title of this thread was much more exciting than the contents...

Where do I sign up for "the Taliban Catholics"? Do we get a badge?

James Bond presumably had to pay income tax on his bonuses. I'll bet albino monks got theirs tax-free. Yes, these people know what they're doing...

gstafleu

It was probably more a result of monotheism, and the resultant intolerance of other religions. With polytheism there is not one absolute truth, the truth of any deity is moderated by the fact that there are a host of other equally true deities. Hence we see polytheistic religions be fairly tolerant of others, cf Caesar's and Tacitus' description of the Celtic and Germanic religions: they just changed the names to Roman ones and thought everything was ok.

With monotheism only one thing (deity-wise) can be true, which means it is much more open to threats from the outside. If your god is the OTG (One True God) then obviously all the others must be false. Hence the intolerance (and of course the fact that for non-OTG believers the universe often seems to be unfolding as if nothing were wrong, doesn't help the sense of security of the OTGers either). As for the irrationality, reality rarely has the courtesy to conform to religious beliefs, and so the OTG is easily threatened. In polytheism that is less of an issue, as you can ascribe an inconsistency with one deity to another deity. In monotheism you cannot do that, hence you are forced to come up with the weirdest constructs in order to keep your OTG going.

Gerard Stafleu

show_no_mercy

I think Christianity's rage against the pagan arts/sciences was due more to Roman politics instead of solely Christianity.

Clivedurdle

Is this not a very strong condemnation of monotheism? It leads to paranoia, lack of touch with reality, extreme views that must be enforced, inability to negotiate and discuss and agree and let live?

Are end time beliefs limited to monotheistic religions?

Maybe the root of the modern taliban and the earlier xian one are in monotheism? Anyone know if there were equivalent groups in Judaism and Zoroastrianism?

Should the war on terrorism actually be a war on monotheism?

Toto

You know that taliban just means "religious scholars?"

There are those who comdemn monotheism as the source of all evil, but most monotheists just go about their business without harming anyone.

End time beliefs today derive from the Christian book of Revelation or Islamic tradition, but I believe that the Hindus also have some sort of cataclysmic fantasies of the end of the world, although theirs is cyclical rather than a complete end of time.

mountainman

Dear show_no_mercy,

What an astoundingly astutue comment. Do you have any names, dates and places?

Best wishes,


Pete

mountainman

Dear Toto,

These people appear to have a great deal of corroborating evidence to support this assertion from the records available of the fourth and fifth centuries when the christians literally ran amok.

<edit> Who in their right mind would ever contemplate such a thought, and what evidence might they present in support of it? Are you sure you are not examining the development and refinement of methods by which the upper classes were extorted and tortured?


What specifically do you think might be exaggerated?

It would be nice if Richard were to weigh in on this issue. I have read some of Richard's comments concerning the level of science in the ancient world and do not recall seeing any depreciating comments about the "success or otherwise" of the pagans in the IQ stakes of antiquity.


Best wishes,


Pete