dongiovanni1976x

Johnny,

I agree that many putative prophecies in the Bible are vaticinium ex eventu (e.g. Daniel c. 160BC ~see: Vermes,G., Many Faces of Jesus) but a good majority of Biblical scholars agree that the author of Ezekiel wrote what we have as chapter 26 prior to the end of Nebuchadnezzar's siege- primarily because Ezekiel later admits that Nebuchadnezzar's assault on the city failed in Chapter 29 (v. 17,18)

In addition, the Dead Sea Scrolls, which predate the Masoretic Text by over 1200 years, have fragments of Ezekiel (4QEzekb, 4QEzekc etc) and demonstrate a faithful adherence to that of our earliest "complete" copies.

The fact that there is so much of this "shoe-horning" being don by Richbee (saying it was not the city of Tyre that was to be destroyed but just the "glory" etc) is further testimony for the fact that the date of composition is genuine.

Why do you repeatedly insist one this aspect of the alledged prophecy? :huh:

Richbee

I assert that it has been the skeptics that have "shoe-horned" a modern Tyre into existence without the Tyrians.

The Biblical Tyre was destroyed! Done, Over.

Nuff said.

Richbee

O.K., who was left?

It wasn't a Tyrian throne, and there were no more Tyrians to speak of.

35,000 went into slavery.

4,000 Killed in the battle.

2,000 crucified.

Old Tyre was destoryed and BTW if you want to find it, you're going to have travel about 6 KM south of what the Arabs call Sour or Sur.

You and Farrell Till would enjoy a tour of the ruins, and the Tomb of Hiram: On the road to Qana El-Jaleel, (6 kilometers southeast of Tyre) is a burial monument from the Persian period (550-330 B.C.). This has traditionally been called the tomb Of Hiram, the celebrated Phoenician architect of the Temple of Jerusalem.

The actuall rock or island off the coast sunk into the ocean and silt covers what little is left. So, much of the slum that Farrel Till rejoices in is bult on the silt that washed up and over what Alexander the Great conquered.

Keep spinning, let us know you grow tired of being dizzy!

The "Queen of the Seas" is no more!

Richbee

Balony!

You need to know when to fold 'em!

John Bloom refutes you - AGAIN!!!

Quote:

In summary we can reconstruct the following:

Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change' of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not "making lemonade out of a lemon" or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.

4) Alexander's attack against the island city of Tyre in 332 B.C. is famous in military history. While invading Persia and Egypt, Alexander did not want to leave his flank exposed to a possible counterattack from Tyre, a vassal of Persia and the strongest naval power on the Mediterranean. Rather than waste time besieging the island for years, he decided to build a land bridge out to the island and take it by direct attack. This dramatic venture is well documented in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri.

Many commentators feel that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled in Alexander's attack, and some liberal scholars argue for a late date for Ezekiel by claiming that later disciples inserted the material that describes Alexander's siege so well.23 Clearly, Alexander fulfilled the comments that the rubble of Tyre would be thrown into the sea, since the mainland ruins were used to build the land bridge out to the island.24 However Ezekiel predicts that Tyre would not be rebuilt, and that it would become a place for the spreading of fishnets. From Arrian's descriptions it is very clear that Alexander did not level the island fortress, in fact, he had Tyre rebuilt. Tyre remained an important trading and manufacturing center that was fought over by Alexander's immediate successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.25

Recent excavations at Tyre show how large the city was in Roman times. A hippodrome with a seating capacity for 60,000 people and a large necropolis were discovered on the mainland in the 1970's. Clearly in New Testament times, the prophecy of Ezekiel was not fulfilled: Tyre was a thriving commercial center when the First Testament was distributed throughout the Roman Empire by Jewish and Christian communities alike. Thus it seems strange for critics to propose that a late redactor inserted the material about Alexander "after the fact," but was so foolish to put in (or leave in) these obvious errors.

5) Tyre served as a major trading and manufacturing center throughout the Byzantine and Muslim periods. During the Crusades, Tyre remained strong and well-fortified, surviving a siege by Saladin in 1187-88 A.D. Finally, in 1291 A.D., the last wave of the nations crashed against Tyre. The Mamluks from Egypt took Tyre, massacred the citizens or sold them into slavery, and destroyed the city as part of their "scorched-earth" policy to thwart any attempt by the Crusaders to return.26 The region then suffered under inter-sect Muslim rivalry, a major earthquake and plague. Several travelogues written during this period remark that the site was essentially abandoned.

In the 1760's a small settlement at Tyre was encouraged by regional authorities, which grew into a small fishing village. Tyre finally became a place for the spreading of fishnets.

6) Over the past 30 years the city of Tyre has grown in size, thanks to a new water supply and Lebanese efforts to develop the excellent beaches near the site as a resort and tourist attraction.27 However, the civil war and proximity to Israel make the region unstable today. Looting at the site is a major concern of archaeologists and historians. Despite this modest growth there seems to be no danger that Tyre will once again become the world-class commercial center and naval power that earned her the title of "Queen of the Seas".

Summary

While commentators may haggle over Nebuchadnezzar's siege, Alexander's battle, the editing of the text by redactor-disciples, and Ezekiel's supposed admission of his failed prophecy, it seems obvious that his prediction has been fulfilled for the past 700 years. I am not aware of any scholar who claims that Ezekiel's predictions about the city not being rebuilt and its fishnets were inserted by disciples or redactors after 1300 A.D. or 1800 A.D.

But weren't most ancient cities destroyed? Weren't many sites abandoned? One would think that if one wait long enough, eventually any site will be abandoned. While a detailed answer to these questions goes beyond the bounds of this paper, we can briefly say in response: Not necessarily. Tyre's sister city, Sidon, located about 20 miles up coast, serves as a good control for this possibility. Ezekiel prophesies (28:22-23) that Sidon will face war, plague and famine, but he never says that she will never be rebuilt or will be reduced to a small fishing village. Sidon has had a bloody past; for example, in 352 B.C., 40,000 Sidonians locked themselves in their city and set fire to it rather than submit to the Persians.28 Yet today she persists as a small coastal city of Lebanon, a fact which hampers archaeologists from studying the area. Clearly, if Ezekiel or a later editor had simply switched the names of these sister cities in the predictions, neither would have been fulfilled.

Conclusion

Is fulfilled prophecy of value for scholarly apologetics? I would say yes. As I have tried to illustrate with the example of Tyre, it allows us to engage liberal scholarship and respond to liberal attacks on the reliability of Scripture. After all, somebody who wrote or edited the book of Ezekiel was able to predict the future. Moreover, fulfilled prophecy plays a critical role in apologetics because it helps to show that God influences history and therefore may be relevant to our personal lives.

However, it appears to me that conservative biblical scholars have shied away from the serious study of fulfilled prophecy because of the fear of liberal criticism and the sensationalizing publications of trendy popularizers. We need to retrieve this topic from the wastebasket of liberal skepticism and the soapboxes of doomsayers!

http://www.apologetics.com/default.j...-prophecy.html

Richbee

You lost! Go lick your wounds!

Jack the Bodiless

Incorrect.
At least 15,000 people.
...and 15,000 who escaped to Sidon and returned later.
This statement is false. So why are you still making this claim?
This statement is false. The island of Tyre (now a peninsula) still remains. You seem to be making the same blunder as Gleason Archer, who got the wrong island.
John Bloom is a moron. We have already covered this.

Why are you STILL repeating a falsehood as if repetition will make it true? You have ALREADY POSTED Bloom's garbage.
We won. And you know it. You've seen the photographs. You've seen the maps.

...So why are you pretending otherwise?

Seven Popes

Jack, you wrote:
(...So why are you pretending otherwise?)
Because his belief system is riding on this falacy. Don't be cruel, Jack. It's clear that Richbee is wrong, but there's no reason to rub his nose in it. And he can't admit it either, so stop waiting for any kind of concession. His history show that the best you might hope for is his abandoning this thread, and his starting a new one.

dongiovanni1976x

Subjugated peoples who purchased their freedom, slaves who couldn't afford too, prominent citizens- several of whom Hephaestion decided between to be the new king, 15,000 that Curtius mentioned who escaped during the siege and retured later (also see Green, Peter Alexander of Macedon 1991 p262), and the new King Ballonymous etc etc

Where is your evidence for this? If Ballonymous was proclaimed king in the market place where all the Tyrians could see him and he was of the royal blood line as our histories claim and he was given the palatial seat of his predecessor per Alexander's instructions then this most certainly was a Tyrian throne.

Making a baseless claim does nothing for your argument. I have demonstrated that there were in fact Tyrians before and after the siege and all you do is deny this...why, what is your evidence?

Curtius mentions the 2,000 that were crucified along the shore and those punitive deaths were likely in addition to the 8,000 casualties Arrian mentions during the actual fighting.
"In all eight thousand Tyrians fell. Total losses of the Macedonians during the siege were about four hundred." (Arrian 2.24.4 / Jidejian, Nina Tyre Through the Ages 1969 p79)

So because your numbers add up to 41,000 does that refute the fact that slaves can buy/earn their freedom or in fact ARE inhabitants...yada yada yada “When I [God] make you [Tyre] a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise the deep against you and the ocean covers you, I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit…so that you will never be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living” (Ez 26:19,20 NJB)

I have been waiting for you to pull this apologetic trick. This is why when you were complaining about Farrell and the rest of us going on and on about the importance of where Tyre was founded (island, mainland both etc) we were continuously stressing that Tyre was founded upon an island and that it relied on the mianland for water, food and burial grounds etc.

For example see: The letter cited by Josephus from King Hiram of Tyre to King Solomon of the Jews: “It is fit to bless God that he has committed your father’s government to you, who is a wise man, and endowed with all virtues…I have cut down many and large trees of cedar and cypress wood, I will send them to sea, and will order my subjects to make floats of them, and sail to what place at all of your country you shall desire, and leave them there, after which your subjects carry them to Jerusalem. But do take care to procure us grain for this timber, which we stand in need of, because we inhabit an island.” (Josephus, Antiquities 1:53-54)
Or just consult the respectable Oxford Classical Dictionary, “Tyre, a major city in southern Phoenicia (see Phoenicians) with a large territory, built on an island but extending ashore, and equipped with two harbours.” (Oxford Classical Dictionary Hornblower & Spawforth 3rd etd 1996, p1568)

Sources for mentioning Ushu as Mainland Tyre:
(1) Liverani, M., Tyre 1988 G.W. Bromiley, ed. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, revised, V. 4. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans: pp932-935
(2) An inscription tells of Sennacherib's (704 - 681 BC) against Tyre, he clearly takes Ushu (the mainland city of Tyre, but makes no mention i.e., hides the fact that he was unable to take the actual city of "Tyre". “In my third campaign I march against Hatti, Luli, King of Sidon, whom the terror-inspiring clamor of my lordship had overwhelmed, fled far overseas and perished. The awe-inspiring splendor of the "weapon" of Ashur, my lord, overwhelmed his strong cities Great Sidon, Little Sidon, Bit-zitti, Zaribtu, Mahalliba, Ushu, Akzib, Akko, his fortress cities, walled, provided with feed and water for his garrisons, and they bowed in submission to my feet, I installed EthBa'al (Tuba'lu) upon the throne to be their king and imposed upon him tribute to me overlord annually without interruption.”
(3) Esarhaddon (680 - 669 BC) after putting down a rebellion with Sidon in return for services rendered signed a treaty with king Ba'lu of Tyre ceding much of the coast, however it appears that Ba'lu did not hold to the bargain and made a deal with Taharqa Pharaoh of Egypt, so Esarhaddon takes action: “I conquered Tyre, which is amidst the sea, I took away all the towns and the possessions of Ba'lu, its king, who had put trust on Tirhakan, King of Nubia, ... threw off my yoke ... bowed down and implored me, as his lord ... heavy tribute his daughters with dowries, all the tributes which he had omitted , he kissed my feet, I took away from him those of his owns on the mainland turning it over to Assyria.
(4) Ashurbainpal's (668 - 633 BC) third campaign is against Tyre: “In my third campaign I marched against Ba'lu, king of Tyre, who lives amidst the sea, because he did not heed my royal order, did not listen to my personal commands. I surrounded him with redoubts, seized his communications, on sea and land. I intercepted and made scarce their food supply and forced them to submit to my yoke (DonG's note: this is how Nebuchadnezzar got submission from Tyre during his siege, but he, like his predecessor, failed to sack the city because the island was so heavily fortified). He brought his own daughter and daughters of his brothers before me to do menial services, at the same time, he brought his son Iahimilki who had not crossed the sea to greet me as slave. I received from him his daughter and the daughters of his brothers with their great dowries. I had mercy upon him and returned to him the son, the offspring of his loins.
(5) Later Ashurbanipal becomes less merciful: “On my return march, I conquered the town Ushu the emplacement of which is on the seacoast (DonG's note: That being the Fortified city of Tyre). I killed those inhabitants of Ushu who did not obey their governors by refusing to deliver the tribute which they had to pay annually. I took to task those among them who were not submissive their images and the people I led as booty to Assyria."
(6) Ushu was the name of the ancient mainland city that supplied Tyre with water, supplies and burial grounds. Based upon the mythical figure Usoos or Ousoüs, a decendant of Genos and Genea, whose children alledgedly discovered fire as recorded by Sanchuniathon (Sankunyaton). (Bikai, Pierre, The Land of Tyre, found in chapter 2 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, p13)
(7) “[Tyre’s] numbers swelled greatly in time of war, when residents of nearby cities on the mainland (such as Ushu) found refuge on the island.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p10)
(8) “Ousoüs is, of course, Ushu or Uzu, the ancient name of the mainland city...During most periods, the majority of the population must have lived on the mainland, while the island area was an administrative and religious center. As an administrative center, it would have contained the palaces of the ruler and probably stations for the army as well, and as a religious center, it had temples serving the city and the region.” (Bikai, Pierre, The Land of Tyre, found in chapter 2 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, pp13-15)
(9) Remarking about the many times Tyre was attacked leading up to, and including Nebuchadnezzar, Maurice Cherab, the Director general of Antiquities in Lebanon says, “If the invaders, however, sometimes succeeded in subduing the coast (i.e. Ushu), the island, which was the heart of Tyre’s maritime empire, eluded them.” (Cherab, Maurice, Tyre, trans: Afaf Rustum Chalhoub, p11)
(10) “A wall relief at Karnak lists the cities Sethos I (or Seti I, Ramesses II’s father) conquered, among them Tyre and Ushu. Ushu appears as if it were part of the Tyrian kingdom.” [DonG's note: one of its "daughter-towns on the aminland that Ezekiel mentioned, see Ez 26:8)(Badre, Leila, Canaanite Tyre, found in chapter 4 of Martha Joukowsky’s “The Heritage of Tyre” 1992, p 40) see also Katzenstein p 49, (both citing James B. Pritchard’s Ancient Near East in Pictures nos. 327, 331)

The city is located at 35° 16' latitude and 33° 11' longitude. (Bikai, P., The Land of Tyre, in Joukowsky, M., "The Heritage of Tyre" chapter 2, 1992, p13) “The location of the city of Tyre is not in doubt, for it exists to this day on the same spot and is known as Sur.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p9) Please demonstrate your evidence. Dr. Bikai excavated the exact area you mention and completely disagrees with you. Why do you continually pontificate as if your claims are as infallible as the BIble you are trying to salvage?

If people inhabited the island before Alexander arrived and Alexander left people there when he marched south, then the island was continuously inhabited. If people inhabited the island before Alexander arrived and Alexander killed everyone then the island was not continuously inhabited. This is simple enough to understand Richbee, right?

Problem is regardless of which scenario was the case, although historically the former has been successfully argued for, the prophecy failed because the island peninsula was later inhabited. PERIOD. “When I [God] make you [Tyre] a ruined city like other deserted cities, when I raise the deep against you and the ocean covers you, I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit…so that you will never be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living” (Ez 26:19,20 NJB)

You seem to be hung up on the idea that in order for a city to be “rebuilt” it must be done by citizens of that very city. But if this were the case then how do cities ever come into existence? By your logic Jamestown, Virginia should be called London Company, but then London itself, or better yet Londinium, should have been called Rome and Rome could arguably be called Troy, if Aeneas is to be believed, and Troy- yada yada yada- back to Eden, I guess, is where all this would end up…simply ludicrous.

Your adjective “Biblical” does nothing to salvage the fact that Tyre continued to flourish after Alexander marched south to Egypt. Hephaestion, Alexander’s favorite, was told he could pick the new king of Tyre because king Azemilcus was too friendly with Darius III (the Persian King). Hephaestion first picked a prominent citizen of Tyre that he liked but this man refused because he was not of royal blood. Diodorus then tells us, this prominent citizen pointed out Ballonymous, who was a poor man but decended from the Tyrian royal line. Hephaestion immediately had Ballonymous clothed in the kings robes and was proclaimed king of Tyre in the market place to his subjects (the remaining inhabitants of Tyre etc). (Diodorus, Histories 17.47.1-6)

aa5874

I don't understand all this prophecy stuff. The Christian Gods are man-made fabrications. The Christian Gods did not create anything, talk to anyone, no angel appeared to any one with messages from those Gods, it is not possible that some one got a prophecy from the Christian Gods.

The entire book of Genesis is fiction. Genesis1-v3-5, ' And God said, Let there be light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day and the Darkness Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This 'light' cannot be seen, today. This so called creation of the first day is a man-made invention. It is absurd to propose that God needs light to work in the day and then rests in the night when it is dark.

There are no prophecies in the Christian Bible, just false statements.

dongiovanni1976x

Why do you use Christian as an adjective in this manner? If cows could draw their bovinesque gods would have hooves...but this thread is not about whether there is or isn't a god or gods but rather whether Ezekiel's prediction regarding Tyre was fulfilled or not.