Yuri Kuchinsky

Greetings, all,

I've seen these Mythicist discussions for years around here, but they always seem to beat around the bush... Most of the time the Mythicists are just engaging in nitpicks around other peoples' arguments, and never go beyond a negative view of things. So let's go straight for the substance now.

When all is said and done, the success or failure of Jesus-myth school of biblical interpretation will ultimately depend on whether or not they will be able to offer the _positive_ picture of how Christianity really originated. Their task is to be able to interpret all the historical evidence in this area in such a way that a coherent picture of Christian beginnings can emerge -- without the Historical Jesus. And here, definitely, they have not yet succeeded so far...

So it will all depend on whether or not they can offer a historical hypothesis that would explain all the existing evidence better than all other competing hypotheses in this area. It is really as simple as that.

In particular, our mythicists seem to face a bit of a difficulty with what may be described as "the problem of the earliest Christian martyrs". Because we know very well that -- for the first three centuries or so -- martyrdom was the fuel which propelled Christianity forwards.

It was those early Christians who, for the sake of their faith, were quite willing and eager to submit to the most cruel torture and death, who really ensured that Christianity continued to grow, until it eventually became the dominant religion of the Roman empire... So if it is assumed that in the beginning Christianity was just some sort of a vague gnostic myth, centred on some Heavenly Saviour, located far out there in the Blue Beyond -- if it is assumed that there was no Historical Jesus -- then one may also ask, How is it possible that, based on this, the belief in the Historical Jesus even managed to emerge, in the first place? And why would have those first martyrs ever submitted to torture and death with such eagerness -- if there was no earthly Jesus, whose death they would have seen as the shining example that it was their duty to emulate?

Did someone fool those early martyrs in some way, to make them believe in those things that they believed? Or did they somehow manage to fool themselves?

The answers to these questions are not really so apparent in the writings of our Jesus mythicists.

Thus, there will remain the following challenges for the Mythicists,

1. To locate the earliest Christian martyrs chronologically.

When do they think was the date of the emergence of the first Christian martyrs?

In this regard, there seems to be a huge divergence among various prominent Mythicists. OTOH, among the HJ mainstreamers, there's no divergence at all in this area; they all think that, in a sense, the Historical Jesus, himself, was the earliest Christian martyr (or perhaps even John the Baptist before him?). Or perhaps they will pinpoint St. Steven as the earliest Christian martyr -- the same basic time frame.

2. To explain the reason why these earliest Christian martyrs were willing to submit to martyrdom.

So did these earliest martyrs believe in the HJ? And if they didn't, what exactly was the reason for them to sacrifice their lives?

Were they fooled by someone? Was there a conspiracy to fool them?

And here's another interesting question,

Did the belief in the HJ emerge before or after the first Christian martyrs emerge?

Yuri.

Artemus

How do you explain all of the Islamic martyrs of today if there was no historical god/prophet figure in the last century or so? Were they fooled by someone? Was there a conspiracy to fool them?

This argument does nothing either way, pro or con HJ. Sometimes people do radical things for any number of reasons.

Wallener

Did the 9/11 pilots believe 70 virgins were waiting for them?

If they didn't, what exactly was the reason for them to sacrifice their lives?

GakuseiDon

Yuri, I don't think much of Doherty's ideas, but I can't see the connection. St Paul was persecuted, flogged and had his life endangered from his preachings. If he represents an expression of the Christ Myth, then it isn't unreasonable to assume that the Christ Myth could inspire martyrdom.

The charges against Christianity that appeared to result in the conditions leading to martyrdom were rejection of the Roman gods (atheism), love feasts and blood sacrificing - there is no evidence that it was because they were worshipping a historical figure (though by the end of the 2nd C CE we can see that Christ was thought to have been a wicked man due to his crucifixion)

I just don't see the issue of martyrdom as giving weight to either side of the Christ Myth debate.

Why wouldn't a heavenly Christ's crucifixion have been a shining example?

Jedi Mind Trick

Outside of the bible, what are the earliest recorded accounts of Christian Martyrdom?

Philadelphia Lawyer

Other than Christian propaganda, what evidence do we have that there were large numbers of martyrs?

Clivedurdle

Isn't the example of Nero a mistranslation - something to do with dodgy builders?

And I thought the reason for martyrdom was not only atheism - rejecting the roman gods - but treason - by rejecting the gods you reject the state.

The so called persecutions can be seen as surgery - to get rid of dangerous political ideas - which turn the other cheek, and equality of slaves and free is for the stability of the state.

Chris Weimer

Sorry Yuri - there is no problem here. The Jews fought wars over their holy land, does that mean Adam and Eve were real? That which inspired them then is probably the same thing that inspired them now: afterlife.

andrewcriddle

The earliest detailed extra-biblical account of the execution of a named Christian for his faith would be the 'Martyrdom of Plycarp' about 160 CE.

There are earlier extrabiblical references to Christians dying for their faith (eg Clement of Rome) Ignatius of Antioch wrote his letters while under sentence of death but the extant description of his execution is much later and legendary.

Tacitus c 120 CE refers to Christians killed under Nero c 67 CE as more briefly does Suetonius.

Pliny c 110 CE refers to having as Roman governor executed obstinate Christians.

Andrew Criddle

Yuri Kuchinsky

You don't know if he represents an expression of the Christ Myth. This is what the Mythicists need to demonstrate...

Well, then answer my questions.

You answer my questions first.

Yuri.