Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Capt_Drakes · 01-16-2004, 10:29 AM

"He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." An inscription to Mithras.

I read this in Jesus Mysteries, and from some sites. Does anyone know when this inscription is dated? Was it before or after gospels?

Toto · 01-16-2004, 11:38 AM

From here:

Quote:

An inscription in the Vatican states plainly, "He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." This is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the Vatican was built on- one dedicated to the God Mithras.

I haven't seen any other source cite the Vatican, and this would not date the source - a Mithraic temple in Rome might have dated from a time after Christianity was prevalent in the Roman Empire. Constantine recognized Christianity and Mithraism as state religions.

But the usual cite is

"He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved." -- Mithraic Communion (M. J. Vermaseren, Mithras, The Secret God)

Christian apologists claim that this cite comes from a medieval Persian manuscript:

From this source:

Quote:

Freke and Gandy strongly imply that the Christian Church invented the words of Jesus in John 6 which exhort us to �eat the flesh of the Son of Man� after the Mithraic quotation, �He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.� Instead of citing an original source, Freke and Gandy cite Joscelyn Godwin. Godwin cites nothing at all, nor does he make any such contention. As it turns out, the real source of this quotation, according to Vermaseren, is a medieval text from Persia containing the sayings of Zarathustra, not Mithra.

This apologetic site says:

Quote:

Another tactic (although most authors aren't as deceptive as they are) used by Freke and Gandy is lack of direct quotes. For example, their pitiful attempt to find a parallel in the Eucharist they reference an inscriptional Mithraic quote from Justin Martyr (another post first century author mind you). "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." (Freke and Gandy, p. 49) They reference us again to Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World (p. 28), for the answers. The problem is that Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but curiously leaves out any and all documentation such as the date of the text or where it was found! Vermaseren (a student of Cumont's) notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret God, p. 103)

It is not clear if this "medieval" text reflects a more ancient tradition or not, of course.

I do not know if this is trustworthy. Other sources imply that the quote came from inscriptions found at the Mithraeum of Sta. Prisca.

Vermaseren's book can be obtaind in pdf format here. I will try to get it.

Toto · 01-17-2004, 02:08 AM

A part of Vermaseren's work is on line here.

This may be the reference:

Quote:

Justin [Martyr] records that on the occasion of the meal the participants used certain formulae comparable with the ritual of the Eucharist, and in this connection mention may be made of a medieval text, published by Cumont, in which of Christ is set beside the sayings of Zarathushtra. The Zardusht speaks to his pupils in these words: 'He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation....' Compare this with Christ's words to his disciples: 'He who eats of my body and drinks of my blood shall have eternal life.' In this important Persian text lies the source of the conflict between the Christians and their opponents, and though of later date it seems to confirm Justin's assertion.

So Vermaseren is quoting a medieval Persian manuscript to confirm statements by Justin Martyr in the mid second century.

But there is also an earlier inscription, mentioned here:

Quote:

An inscription in the Mithraeum under the Church of Santa Prisca in Rome referred to Mithras saving men by shedding the eternal blood of the bull. On the very spot on which the last Taurobolium took place at the end of the fourth century, in the Phrygianum, today stands the Vatican's St. Peter's Basilica.

David Fingrut, "MITHRAISM: The Legacy of the Roman Empire's Final Pagan State Religion"

Unfortunately, Fingrut, a high school student at the time, does not give the exact terms of this inscription.

This google cache of a note on the topic states:

Quote:

In practical terms, however, the only hard evidence of a "salvational" ideology is a piece of graffiti found in the Santa Prisca Mithraeum (a Mithraist "church" building, if you will), dated no earlier than 200 AD, that reads, "And us, too, you saved by spilling the eternal blood." [Spie.MO, 45; Gor.IV, 114n; Verm.MSG, 172] Note that this refers to Mithra spilling the blood of the bull -- not his own -- and that (according to the modern Mithraic "astrological" interpretation) this does not mean "salvation" in a Christian sense (involving freedom from sin) but an ascent through levels of initiation into immortality.

Graffiti or inscription? Seems to depend on your point of view. Of course, salvation is analogous to ascent into immortality for the gnostics.

Some sources appear to have confused the inscription with the quote from Vermaseren, but neither can be unambiguously dated before the gospels.

The best evidence that Mithraic rituals predated similar Christian ones appears to be Justin Martyr's comments.

I hope this helps. I don't put too much stock in the copycat argument myself.

Capt_Drakes · 01-17-2004, 10:46 AM

That helps alot. Thanks Toto.

external solipsism · 01-17-2004, 02:54 PM

I wonder, is there even ONE compontent of Christianity that was not adopted from another religion, specifically a pagan religion?

GakuseiDon · 01-17-2004, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by external solipsism
I wonder, is there even ONE compontent of Christianity that was not adopted from another religion, specifically a pagan religion?

The crucifixion.

Doctor X · 01-17-2004, 04:01 PM

Well, Ishtar/Ianna gets hung up on a tree. . . .

There are other dying gods. Crucifixion was just the more common Roman execution.

--J.D.

Doctor X · 01-17-2004, 04:08 PM

She also rises from the underworld in three days. . . .

--J.D.

variant 13 · 01-17-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GakuseiDon
The crucifixion.

Odin was strung up on a tree for a bit (quite a while IIRC), it's how he found shit out (runes etc.)

GakuseiDon · 01-17-2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Well, Ishtar/Ianna gets hung up on a tree. . . .

There are other dying gods. Crucifixion was just the more common Roman execution.

--J.D.

Doc, just to be clear: the question was "Is there even ONE compontent of Christianity that was not adopted from another religion?"

How likely (IYO) is it that Christianity adopted Jesus's death from Ishtar? Possible/Probable/Likely/Almost certain? And what evidence is there for it?

Jmebob, same question about Odin (who I understand didn't even die on the tree).

01-16-2004, 10:29 AM	#1
Capt_Drakes Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 1,870	Mithras insciption question "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." An inscription to Mithras. I read this in Jesus Mysteries, and from some sites. Does anyone know when this inscription is dated? Was it before or after gospels?

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01-17-2004, 10:46 AM	#4
Capt_Drakes Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 1,870	That helps alot. Thanks Toto.

01-17-2004, 02:54 PM	#5
external solipsism Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: San Antonio Posts: 840	I wonder, is there even ONE compontent of Christianity that was not adopted from another religion, specifically a pagan religion?

01-17-2004, 04:01 PM	#7
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Well, Ishtar/Ianna gets hung up on a tree. . . . There are other dying gods. Crucifixion was just the more common Roman execution. --J.D.

01-17-2004, 04:08 PM	#8
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	She also rises from the underworld in three days. . . . --J.D.

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