Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:21 PM

More from Clement:

Quote:

"For now we see as through a glass," the same apostle says, "but then face to face." Wherefore also he has added, "neither yet are ye now able, for ye are still carnal," minding the things of the flesh,--desiring, loving, feeling jealousy, wrath, envy. "For we are no more in the flesh," as some suppose. For with it [they say], having the face which is like an angel's, we shall see the promise face to face. How then, if that is truly the promise after our departure hence, say they that they know "what eye hath not known, nor hath entered into the mind of man," who have not perceived by the Spirit, but received from instruction "what ear hath not heard," or that ear alone which "was rapt up into the third heaven?" But it even then was commanded to preserve it unspoken. [Paed 1.6]

The philosophers did not exert themselves in contemning the appearance of the Lord. It therefore follows that it is the opinion of the wise among the Jews which the apostle inveighs against it. Wherefore he adds, "But we preach, as it is written, what eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and hath not entered into the heart of man, what God hath prepared for them that love Him. For God hath revealed it to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God." For he recognises the spiritual man and the Gnostic as the disciple of the Holy Spirit dispensed by God, which is the mind of Christ. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him." Now the apostle, in contradistinction to gnostic perfection, calls the common faith the foundation, and sometimes milk, writing on this wise: "Brethren, I could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not able. Neither yet are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? " Which things are the choice of those men who are sinners. But those who abstain from these things give their thoughts to divine things, and partake of gnostic food. "According to the grace," it is said, "given to me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation. And another buildeth on it gold and silver, precious stones."

Such is the gnostic superstructure on the foundation of faith in Christ Jesus. But "the stubble, and the wood, and the hay," are the additions of heresies. "But the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." In allusion to the gnostic edifice also in the Epistle to the Romans, he says, "For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you a spiritual gift, that ye may be established." It was impossible that gifts of this sort could be written without disguise. [Strom 5.4]

Both passages use the milk and meat metaphor presumably relating to two gospels - according to my understanding the original gospel of Peter and then the mystical text build upon that text by Paul (and referenced in 1 Corinthians 2)

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:43 PM

And if people were generally familiar with the discussion that develops in writings and written traditions that go back to Irenaeus, you would see that a controversy developed in the late second century as to whether Paul's gospel (which seems to have been acknowledged by Catholics to have developed from Peter's text) was compatible or 'of the same spirit' as Peter's gospel. Irenaeus (and those who copied his text) said yes, it must be so. Yet I am quite certain the heretics said no.

Huon · 03-03-2012, 05:29 AM

Quote:

le cinquième du mois d'Ebib

is the fifth day of the month of Abib.

Huon · 03-03-2012, 05:40 AM

Quote:

C'est pendant ce temps-là que saint Pierre composa l'Évangile qui porte le nom de saint Marc, et qu'il prêcha dans la grande ville de Rome et dans le pays des Latins. Or, l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant appris cette nouvelle, tomba dans le plus grand étonnement.

"cette nouvelle" is not necessarily "the gospel". It could be simply the fact that Peter preached in Rome and that Paul was very surprised by this fact. Which would mean that Peter and Paul had no connexion in Rome with each other... [this is not very catholic]

"tomba dans le plus grand étonnement" = was very surprised, extremely surprised.

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 02:52 PM

I have Stephen J Davis willing to search for the original Arabic manuscript if I can find reference to it somewhere in a nineteenth century French book. I can't find reference to this text anywhere else which is very odd (even though I can see from Pope Shenouda's book on Mark that he borrows heavily from this text).

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 04:07 PM

Thomas C Oden (= African Memory of Mark) doesn't seem to know this text even exists. He draws from Severus of Al'Ashmunein and thinks he is our earliest Coptic source. Sorry Charlie. Yet he isn't alone. No one in the English speaking world has ever heard of it.

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 06:07 PM

Dear Mr Hullerthe Arabic text (p. 35 of the edition) somply says:"When Paul the apostle heard about this", i.e. there is no stress on*"nouvelle". The term must be here understood in its most generic sense.

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 08:38 PM

OMG I just received a paper from Youhanna Youssef of the Catholic University in Melbourne. The paper starts by saying that Barges made a fundamental error. Apparently also "in the sixth century, John Bishop of Ashmunien delivered a homily about Saint Mark." The paper is absolutely interesting. More to follow

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 08:58 PM

The Homily itself makes clear that this material was written originally in Coptic and then translated subsequently into Arabic. So if we make a translation of the French into English we are three translations removed from the original. Yikes

stephan huller · 03-03-2012, 09:08 PM

Here are Youssef's conclusions:

CONCLUSION

The reasons behind the delivery of the homily on Saint Mark by Severus bishop of Nastrāwa are:

1- Tensions between Copts and Melkites.
2- The stealing of the relics of Saint Mark by the Venetians between 827-830.
3- To show that Copts are the legitimate successors for Saint Mark.

The name of Severus was given to the Bishop of Nastrāwa for several reasons:

1- As Severus of Antioch played an important role in the life of the Patriarch James (who probably consecrated him).
2- There are some inspirations from the text of Severus of Antioch in our text.
3- Severus of Antioch is always mentioned in the liturgical texts after saint Mark.

The composition of the text was made when the venetian stole the relics of saint Mark in order to show that the Coptic church still hold the head of Saint Mark.

The translation of the text took place during the Golden age of Christian Arabic literature, while the Coptic church suffered from different persecutions however two contemporary text i.e. the rite of consecration of the patriarch and the book of Ibn Kabar the translation of the text of the homily on saint Mark confirm the faithful that the patriarch, although persecuted should follow the foot-steps of saint Mark to the point of being martyred like him

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03-02-2012, 12:43 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And if people were generally familiar with the discussion that develops in writings and written traditions that go back to Irenaeus, you would see that a controversy developed in the late second century as to whether Paul's gospel (which seems to have been acknowledged by Catholics to have developed from Peter's text) was compatible or 'of the same spirit' as Peter's gospel. Irenaeus (and those who copied his text) said yes, it must be so. Yet I am quite certain the heretics said no.

03-03-2012, 02:52 PM	#15
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have Stephen J Davis willing to search for the original Arabic manuscript if I can find reference to it somewhere in a nineteenth century French book. I can't find reference to this text anywhere else which is very odd (even though I can see from Pope Shenouda's book on Mark that he borrows heavily from this text).

03-03-2012, 04:07 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Thomas C Oden (= African Memory of Mark) doesn't seem to know this text even exists. He draws from Severus of Al'Ashmunein and thinks he is our earliest Coptic source. Sorry Charlie. Yet he isn't alone. No one in the English speaking world has ever heard of it.

03-03-2012, 06:07 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Dear Mr Hullerthe Arabic text (p. 35 of the edition) somply says:"When Paul the apostle heard about this", i.e. there is no stress on*"nouvelle". The term must be here understood in its most generic sense.

03-03-2012, 08:38 PM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	OMG I just received a paper from Youhanna Youssef of the Catholic University in Melbourne. The paper starts by saying that Barges made a fundamental error. Apparently also "in the sixth century, John Bishop of Ashmunien delivered a homily about Saint Mark." The paper is absolutely interesting. More to follow

03-03-2012, 08:58 PM	#19
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Homily itself makes clear that this material was written originally in Coptic and then translated subsequently into Arabic. So if we make a translation of the French into English we are three translations removed from the original. Yikes

03-03-2012, 09:08 PM	#20
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here are Youssef's conclusions: CONCLUSION The reasons behind the delivery of the homily on Saint Mark by Severus bishop of Nastrāwa are: 1- Tensions between Copts and Melkites. 2- The stealing of the relics of Saint Mark by the Venetians between 827-830. 3- To show that Copts are the legitimate successors for Saint Mark. The name of Severus was given to the Bishop of Nastrāwa for several reasons: 1- As Severus of Antioch played an important role in the life of the Patriarch James (who probably consecrated him). 2- There are some inspirations from the text of Severus of Antioch in our text. 3- Severus of Antioch is always mentioned in the liturgical texts after saint Mark. The composition of the text was made when the venetian stole the relics of saint Mark in order to show that the Coptic church still hold the head of Saint Mark. The translation of the text took place during the Golden age of Christian Arabic literature, while the Coptic church suffered from different persecutions however two contemporary text i.e. the rite of consecration of the patriarch and the book of Ibn Kabar the translation of the text of the homily on saint Mark confirm the faithful that the patriarch, although persecuted should follow the foot-steps of saint Mark to the point of being martyred like him

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