Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:54 AM

I find this interesting too:

Quote:

Quant au grand saint Marc, il retourna auprès de saint Pierre, coryphée des Apôtres, et il s'attacha à celuii en qualité de disciple pendant une année entière. C'est pendant ce temps-là que saint Pierre composa l'Évangile qui porte le nom de saint Marc, et qu'il prêcha dans la grande ville de Rome et dans le pays des Latins. Or, l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant appris cette nouvelle, tomba dans le plus grand étonnement. C'est dans la ville de Rome que l'apôtre saint Pierre fut crucifié et que saint Paul eut la tète tranchée sous le règne de l'empereur César Néron ; or , par une coïncidence arrivée par la volonté divine, le jour où saint Pierre avait été crucifié, se rencontra le même que celui où saint Paul fut condamné plus tard à avoir la tête tranchée, c'est-à-dire le cinquième du mois d'Ebib. Leurs corps reposent encore de nos jours dans la cité de Rome. En émigrant vers le Seigneur, les âmes des deux grands apôtres, Pierre et Paul, se trouvèrent prof ondément attristées,, en songeant que les habitants de la contrée de l'Égypte n'avaient point encore entendu prêcher chez eux L'Evangile de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ. (Soit-il glorifié dans tous les siècles ! Amen.)

As for the great St. Mark, he returned to St. Peter, the Apostles chorus leader, and he clung to him as a disciple for a full year. It was during this time that Peter wrote the Gospel that bears the name of St. Mark, and he preached in the great city of Rome and the Latins in the country. But the apostle Paul, having heard the news (= gospel), fell into the greatest astonishment. It is in the city of Rome that the Apostle Peter was crucified and that St. Paul was beheaded under the reign of Emperor Nero Caesar, yet by coincidence came by divine will, the day St. Peter was crucified, met the same as that which St. Paul was later sentenced to be beheaded, that is to say, the fifth month of Ebib. Their bodies still lie today in the city of Rome. By migrating to the Lord, the souls of two great apostles, Peter and Paul found themselves ondément prof saddened, at the thought that the inhabitants of the land of Egypt had not yet heard the Gospel preached home of Notre Lord Jesus Christ. (May he be glorified in all ages, Amen.)

I wonder whether the reference to Paul's 'great astonishment' has something to do with the Marcionite gospel which is referenced in a Syriac commentary as saying “O wonder of wonders, rapture, might and astonishment, that man can neither say nor think anything concerning the Gospel nor compare it with anything."

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 07:50 AM

I find this part of the account the most fascinating in a way. Notice that there is really no mention of the Gospel of Mark as a composition written by Mark - but - there is this strange line about Paul 'falling into the greatest astonishment' followed by Paul's commissioning of all the evangelists. Here is what immediately follows what is presented above:

Quote:

Quant au grand saint Marc, il retourna auprès de saint Pierre, coryphée des Apôtres, et il s'attacha à celui en qualité de disciple pendant une année entière. C'est pendant ce temps-là que saint Pierre composa l'Évangile qui porte le nom de saint Marc, et qu'il prêcha dans la grande ville de Rome et dans le pays des Latins.

Or, l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant appris cette nouvelle, tomba dans le plus grand étonnement. C'est dans la ville de Rome que l'apôtre saint Pierre fut crucifié et que saint Paul eut la tète tranchée sous le règne de l'empereur César Néron ; or , par une coïncidence arrivée par la volonté divine, le jour où saint Pierre avait été crucifié, se rencontra le même que celui où saint Paul fut condamné plus tard à avoir la tête tranchée, c'est-à-dire le cinquième du mois d'Ebib. Leurs corps reposent encore de nos jours dans la cité de Rome. En émigrant vers le Seigneur, les âmes des deux grands apôtres, Pierre et Paul, se trouvèrent prof ondément attristées,, en songeant que les habitants de la contrée de l'Égypte n'avaient point encore entendu prêcher chez eux L'Evangile de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ. (Soit-il glorifié dans tous les siècles ! Amen.)

Maintenant, mes chers frères, vous connaissez la généalogie du grand et illustre saint Marc, ainsi que la noblesse de sa naissance ; vous venez de voir de quelle contrée il était originaire ; vous savez que son père tirait son origine de l'Égypte, et que sa mère était Israélite, et de la tribu de Lévi, selon que je l'ai établi précédemment. Sous ce rapport, il avait un point de ressemblance avec saint Timothée, disciple de Tapôtre saint Paul, car la mère de celui-ci était une femme israélite convertie à la vraie foi, tandis que son père appartenait à la nation grecque^ ce qui fit que saint Paul jugea nécessaire de le soumettre à la circoncision, parce que c'était une chose connue de tout le monde que son père était de race grecque.

Le grand saint Marc étant ainsi originaire du pays d'Egypte , Dieu voulut aussi lui réserver cette contrée comme un lot faisant partie de l'héritage de ses përes. En effet, nous voyons par le livre des Actes ou Tournées des Envoyés divins, que saint Paul et ses compagnons se disposant à partir pour aller prêcher en Asie, l'esprit de Jésus les en empêcha. L'apôtre saint Paul avait alors appris que saint Jean l'évangéliste avait été envoyé en exil dans l'Ue de Pathmos, et désirait ardemment de passer en Asie pour y prêcher la foi ; mais le Seigneur lui défendit de mettre les pieds dans l'héritage de son confrère, tant que celui-ci resterait en vie, et c'est ainsi que le Saint-Esprit arrêta le projet de saint Paul, et qu'il ne le laissa point partir pour l'Asie en ce temps-là (1). Mais dans la suite, lorsque saint Jean, fils de Zébédée, eut trépassé et qu*il fut allé rejoindre dans l'autre monde le Seigneur qui l'avait tendrement aimé, l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant reçu la nouvelle de cette mort précieuse , se rendit à Ëphëse , cette grande ville de l'Asie, où il put alors prêcher l'Évangile et où il installa patriarche son disciple Timothée*

Cette conduite de la Providence se vérifia également à l'égard des habitants de la province d'Égypte, car, si dès le principe ils ne se convertirent pas à la foi en l'entendant prêcher au milieu d'eux, c'est parce que l'Esprit-Saint ne permit pas alors qu'ils se soumissent à la prédication des autres disciples, avant que saint Marc, qui était originaire de ce pays, ne l'eût reçu comme un lot héréditaire et comme une terre réservée à sa mission. Avant lui, il est vrai, l'apôtre saint Paul avait paru dans Alexandrie , où il avait prêché la foi nouvelle, mais personne n*avait consenti à l'embrasser; au contraire, les infidèles l'ayant attaché à une colonne se mirent à le maltraiter, jusqu'au moment où, par la volonté de Dieu (soit-il loué!), la colonne, s'entr ouvrant , reçut dans sa masse le corps du saint Apôtre, en sorte qu'il disparut à leurs yeux et qu'on ne le vit plus. Il en fut de même de saint Pierre, le prince des disciples de Notre-Seigneur Jésus-Christ, car, étant venu dans la ville d'Alexandrie pour y prêcher, il ne convertit personne, si ce n'est le fils de Festus, qui, plus tard, périt dans la mer (1) : nous voulons parler de Clément, disciple du même saint Pierre.

Malgré tout ce qui vient d'être établi, peut-être se trouvera-t-il au milieu de vous quelqu'un de ces hommes qui aiment à contredire, lequel me dira : "Où avez- vous puisé la connaissance d'un si profond mystère ? car il ne se trouve nulle part indiqué dans la sainte Écriture ; il n'a été connu ni de saint Luc, le médecin, qui raconte les actes des Apôtres, ni de rhistorien Josèphe, ni de Philon, écrivains juifs qui ont mis au jour les actions de notre Sauveur, ni même de saint Clément , disciple de saint Pierre. Tous ces auteurs ont consulté avec soin les écrits de nos saints pères les Apôtres pour tracer leur vie ; ils ont parlé de la conduite de la mère de saint Marc, comme quoi les disciples cherchaient un asile auprès d'elle, comme quoi elle fournissait à leurs dépenses ; mais, quant au père du saint Évangéliste , ils n'en disent pas un seul mot. » Je vais donc maintenant , cher auditeur, répondre à cela et te renseigner, afin que je dissipe le doute qui est dans ton esprit

As for the great St. Mark, he returned to St. Peter, the Apostles chorus leader, and he clung to that as a disciple for a full year. It was during this time that Peter wrote the Gospel that bears the name of St. Mark, and he preached in the great city of Rome and the Latins in the country.

But the apostle Paul, having heard the news, fell into the greatest astonishment. It is in the city of Rome that the Apostle Peter was crucified and that St. Paul was beheaded under the reign of Emperor Nero Caesar, yet by coincidence came by divine will, the day St. Peter was crucified, met the same as that which St. Paul was later sentenced to be beheaded, that is to say, the fifth month of Ebib. Their bodies still lie today in the city of Rome. By migrating to the Lord, the souls of two great apostles, Peter and Paul found themselves ondément prof saddened, at the thought that the inhabitants of the land of Egypt had not yet heard the Gospel preached home of Notre Lord Jesus Christ. (May he be glorified in all ages, Amen.)

Now, my dear brothers, you know the genealogy of the great and illustrious St. Mark, and the nobility of his birth, you just see what country he came from, you know that his father had originated from Egypt, and his mother was Jewish, and the tribe of Levi, as I stated before. In this respect, he had a point of resemblance to Saint Timothy, a disciple of St. Paul Tapôtre because the mother of one was a Jewish woman converted to the true faith, while his father belonged to the Greek nation ^ which made that St. Paul found it necessary to submit to circumcision, because it was something known to everyone that his father was Greek race.

The great Saint Marc and being born of Egypt, God also wanted him aside this land as part of a lot the inheritance of his fathers. Indeed, we see the book of Acts or tours of divine Messengers, that St. Paul and his companions from having to preach in Asia, the spirit of Jesus stopped them. The Apostle Paul was now learning that St. John the Evangelist was exiled in the Isle of Patmos, and longed to go to Asia to preach the faith, but the Lord forbade him to set foot in legacy of his colleague, as it would remain alive, and that is how the Holy Spirit stopped the project of St. Paul, and he did not let him leave for Asia in those days (1). But later, when John son of Zebedee, had passed away and that * he was gone to join the other world the Lord who had dearly loved, the Apostle Paul, who received the news of this precious death , went to Ephesus, the great city of Asia, where he was then able to preach the Gospel and where he established his disciple Timothy patriarch *

This conduct of Providence is also checked against the inhabitants of the province of Egypt, as if from the beginning they did not convert to the faith by hearing preaching in their midst, it is because that the Holy Spirit did not permit then they should submit to the preaching of the other disciples, before St. Mark, who was originally from this country, had not received a lot as a hereditary and reserved land to its mission. Before him, it is true, the Apostle Paul had appeared in Alexandria, where he had preached the new faith, but nobody * had consented to embrace the contrary, the infidels have attached to the column began to mistreat him, until, by the will of God (be He praised!), column, entry is open, received him into her body mass of the holy Apostle, so he vanished from their eyes and we saw him no more. It was the same of St. Peter, Prince of the disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, because, having arrived in the city of Alexandria to preach, it does not convert anyone, except the son of Festus, who later perished in the sea (1): we speak of Clement, a disciple of that St. Peter.

Despite all that has been established, may be found there among you one of those men who like to contradict, which tells me: "Where did you get to meet so profound mystery? because there is nowhere mentioned in Scripture, he was known neither to St. Luke, the doctor, who tells the acts of the Apostles, or rhistorien Josephus nor Philo, Jewish writers who revealed the actions of our Saviour, nor of St. Clement, a disciple of St. Peter. All these authors have carefully consulted the writings of our holy fathers the Apostles to trace their lives they talked about the conduct of the mother St. Mark, as what the disciples were seeking asylum with her, as it provided what their expenses, but as the father of the holy Evangelist, they do not say a word. "I will now, dear listener , and you respond to that information, so I doubt that is dissipated in your mind

The way I read this text (and I am biased I fully admit) is that Peter wrote the gospel now called the Gospel of Mark but that just after that event Paul 'fell into great astonishment' and then commissioned all the missionary activities of which Mark's coming to Egypt was only one organized Pauline effort. I find this interesting if - as I suspect - 'falling into great astonishment' is connected with Paul's vision in 2 Corinthians 12. This could be understood to be related to the development of the 'secret gospel' (I told you I was biased at the outset).

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 08:05 AM

I am trying to find a context for the statement - "l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant appris cette nouvelle, tomba dans le plus grand étonnement." Any other suggestions?

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 08:09 AM

Also the author is Severus Bishop of Nestéraweh. I also found this digitalized French text http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/1027...53240/fulltext

Bargès, J.-J.-L., Homélie St. Marc, Apôtre et évangéliste, par Anba Sévère, Évèque de Nestéraweh, 1877.

Actually I think this might be a better pdf http://www.johnlamoreaux.org/texts.html

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 08:39 AM

I've been trying to figure out where Nesteraweh is. Am I right in concluding that = Byblos?

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 09:35 AM

The difficulty here for me is whether 'fell into great amazement' is in the Arabic or - as is typical among French translations - it is an familiar French idiom to replace something in the Arabic. The closest thing I can find is Mark 7:37 in the French translation:

Ils étaient dans le plus grand étonnement, et disaient

καὶ ὑπερπερισσῶς ἐξεπλήσσοντο λἐγοντες

It's really going to make a difference to read what the original Arabic says. My gut tells me that the original idea was - Paul read Peter's gospel and was somehow 'astonished.' The French literally says 'fell into great astonishment.' I wonder if the original says 'raised in great astonishment' - i.e. had his mystic ascending into the third heaven.

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 10:09 AM

Here is something else. I just noticed that Mark 10:26 has a similar expression. Clement in Quis Dives Salvetur takes great interest in the saying. It is clearly a Markan term. Only Mark uses is it:

Quote:

And Jesus looked round about, and saith to His disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! More easily shall a camel enter through the eye of a needle than a rich man into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, and said (οἳ δὲ περισσῶς ἐξεπλήσσοντο καὶ ἔλεγον), Who then can be saved? bend He, looking upon them, said, What is impossible with men is possible with God. For with God all things are possible. Peter began to say to Him, Lo, we have left all and followed Thee.

I am now thinking that this reference in Severus shows how ancient the testimony is (if of course the original Arabic supports the French terminology. There is something inherently Markan about coming into contact with the gospel and being 'astonished out of measure.'

This is why I keep arguing with people at this forum about the dating of ancient texts. You have to understand the mindset of the ancients. Yes at times they can seem like a slavish bunch. But this works in your favor with regards to traditions. Unlike today where scholars feel they can change the meanings of things, the ancient had a devotion to tradition. As such ideas and texts can be passed along at times word for word (in key places) for a thousand years with only a little corruption. Think about Homer for a moment and the ability of oral traditions to be passed along.

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 10:59 AM

And again a little later in the same text of Clement of Alexandria:

Quote:

Why then do they say in consternation, "Who can be saved?" They had heard well and like disciples what was spoken in parable and obscurely by the Lord, and perceived the depth of the words. For they were sanguine of salvation on the ground of their want of wealth. But when they became conscious of not having yet wholly renounced the passions (for they were neophytes and recently selected by the Saviour), they were excessively astonished (περισσῶς ἐξεπλήσσοντο), and despaired of themselves no less than that rich man who clung so terribly to the wealth which he preferred to eternal life. It was therefore a fit subject for all fear on the disciples' part; if both he that possesses wealth and he that is teeming with passions were the rich, and these alike shall be expelled from the heavens. For salvation is the privilege of pure and passionless souls. [QDS 20]

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 11:05 AM

Again, I think the idea is that Jesus's teachings are so incredible they cause its hearers to lose their minds (or lose touch with normal reality for a while). Hence also the saying "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart." Isaiah 64/3 which is referenced interestingly by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 speaking about a hidden gospel.

stephan huller · 03-02-2012, 12:14 PM

Two passages in which Clement makes reference to this saying in 1 Corinthians and Isaiah:

Quote:

The same work, then, presents a difference, according as it is done by fear, or accomplished by love, and is wrought by faith or by knowledge. Rightly, therefore, their rewards are different. To the Gnostic "are prepared what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man;" but to him who has exercised simple faith He testifies a hundredfold in return for what he has left, -- a promise which has turned out to fall within human comprehension.

Come to this point, I recollect one who called himself a Gnostic. For, expounding the words, "But i say unto you, he that looketh on a woman to lust after, hath committed adultery," he thought that it was not bare desire that was condemned; but if through the desire the act that results from it proceeding beyond the desire is accomplished in it. For dream employs phantasy and the body. Accordingly, the historians relate the following decision, of Bocchoris the just. A youth, falling in love with a courtezan, persuades the girl, for a stipulated reward, to come to him next day. But his desire being unexpectedly satiated, by laying hold of the girl in a dream, by anticipation, when the object of his love came according to stipulation, he prohibited her from coming in. But she, on learning what had taken place, demanded the reward, saying that in this way she had sated the lover's desire. They came accordingly to the judge. He, ordering the youth to hold out the purse containing the reward in the sun, bade the courtezan take hold of the shadow; facetiously bidding him pay the image of a reward for the image of an embrace.

Accordingly one dreams, the soul assenting to the vision. But he dreams waking, who looks so as to lust; not only, as that Gnostic said, if along with the sight of the woman he imagine in his mind intercourse, for this is already the act of lust, as lust; but if one looks on beauty of person (the Word says), and the flesh seem to him in the way of lust to be fair, looking on cam ally and sinfully, he is judged because he admired.

For, on the other hand, he who in chaste love looks on beauty, thinks not that the flesh is beautiful, but the spirit, admiring, as I judge, the body as an image, by whose beauty he transports himself to the Artist, and to the true beauty; exhibiting the sacred symbol, the bright impress of righteousness to the angels that wait on the ascension; I mean the unction of acceptance, the quality of disposition which resides in the soul that is gladdened by the communication of the Holy Spirit. This glory, which Shone forth on the face of Moses, the people could not look on. Wherefore he took a veil for the glory, to those who looked carnally.[Strom 4.18]

Quote:

The man of understanding and perspicacity is, then, a Gnostic. And his business is not abstinence from what is evil (for this is a step to the highest perfection), or the doing of good out of fear. For it is written, "Whither shall I flee, and where shall I hide myself from Thy presence? If I ascend into heaven, Thou art there; if I go away to the uttermost parts of the sea, there is Thy right hand; if I go down into the depths, there is Thy Spirit." Nor any more is he to do so from hope of promised recompense. For it is said, "Behold the Lord, and His reward is before His face, to give to every one according to his works; what eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and hath not entered into the heart of man what God hath prepared for them that love Him." But only the doing of good out of love, and for the sake of its own excellence, is to be the Gnostic's choice. Now, in the person of God it is said to the Lord, "Ask of Me, and I will give the heathen for Thine inheritance;" teaching Him to ask a truly regal request -- that is, the salvation of men without price, that we may inherit and possess the Lord. For, on the contrary, to desire knowledge about God for any practical purpose, that this may be done, or that may not be done, is not proper to the Gnostic; but the knowledge itself suffices as the reason for contemplation. For I will dare aver that it is not because he wishes to be saved that he, who devotes himself to knowledge for the sake of the divine science itself, chooses knowledge. For the exertion of the intellect by exercise is prolonged to a perpetual exertion. And the perpetual exertion of the intellect is the essence of an intelligent being, which results from an uninterrupted process of admixture, and remains eternal contemplation, a living substance. Could we, then, suppose any one proposing to the Gnostic whether he would choose the knowledge of God or everlasting salvation; and if these, which are entirely identical, were separable, he would without the least hesitation choose the knowledge of God, deeming that property of faith, which from love ascends to knowledge, desirable, for its own sake. This, then, is the perfect man's first form of doing good, when it is done not for any advantage in what pertains to him, but because he judges it right to do good; and the energy being vigorously exerted in all things, in the very act becomes good; not, good in some things, and not good in others; but consisting in the habit of doing good, neither for glory, nor, as the philosophers say, for reputation, nor from reward either from men or God; but so as to pass life after the image and likeness of the Lord.

And if, in doing good, he be met with anything adverse, he will let the recompense pass without resentment as if it were good, he being just and good "to the just and the unjust." To such the Lord says, "Be ye, as your Father is perfect."

To him the flesh is dead; but he himself lives alone, having consecrated the sepulchre into a holy temple to the Lord, having turned towards God the old sinful soul.

Such an one is no longer continent, but has reached a state of passionlessness, waiting to put on the divine image. "If thou doest alms," it is said, "let no one know it; and if thou fastest, anoint thyself, that God alone may know," and not a single human being. Not even he himself who shows mercy ought to know that he does show mercy; for in this way he will be sometimes merciful, sometimes not. And when he shall do good by habit, he will imitate the nature of good, and his disposition will be his nature and his practice. There is no necessity for removing those who are raised on high, but there is necessity for those who are walking to reach the requisite goal, by passing over the whole of the narrow way. For this is to be drawn by the Father, to become worthy to receive the power of grace from God, so as to run without hindrance. And if some hate the elect, such an one knows their ignorance, and pities their minds for its folly.

As is right, then, knowledge itself loves and teaches the ignorant, and instructs the whole creation to honour God Almighty. And if such an one teaches to love God, he will not hold virtue as a thing to be lost in any case, either awake or in a dream, or in any vision; since the habit never goes out of itself by falling from being a habit. Whether, then, knowledge be said to be habit or disposition; on account of diverse sentiments never obtaining access, the guiding faculty, remaining unaltered, admits no alteration of appearances by framing in dreams visionary conceptions out of its movements by day. Wherefore also the Lord enjoins "to watch," so that our soul may never be perturbed with passion, even in dreams; but also to keep the life of the night pure and stainless, as if spent in the day. For assimilation to God, as far as we can, is preserving the mind in its relation to the same things. And this is the relation of mind as mind. [ibid 4.22]

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03-02-2012, 08:05 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am trying to find a context for the statement - "l'apôtre saint Paul, ayant appris cette nouvelle, tomba dans le plus grand étonnement." Any other suggestions?

03-02-2012, 08:09 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Also the author is Severus Bishop of Nestéraweh. I also found this digitalized French text http://www.e-corpus.org/notices/1027...53240/fulltext Bargès, J.-J.-L., Homélie St. Marc, Apôtre et évangéliste, par Anba Sévère, Évèque de Nestéraweh, 1877. Actually I think this might be a better pdf http://www.johnlamoreaux.org/texts.html

03-02-2012, 08:39 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I've been trying to figure out where Nesteraweh is. Am I right in concluding that = Byblos?

03-02-2012, 09:35 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The difficulty here for me is whether 'fell into great amazement' is in the Arabic or - as is typical among French translations - it is an familiar French idiom to replace something in the Arabic. The closest thing I can find is Mark 7:37 in the French translation: Ils étaient dans le plus grand étonnement, et disaient καὶ ὑπερπερισσῶς ἐξεπλήσσοντο λἐγοντες It's really going to make a difference to read what the original Arabic says. My gut tells me that the original idea was - Paul read Peter's gospel and was somehow 'astonished.' The French literally says 'fell into great astonishment.' I wonder if the original says 'raised in great astonishment' - i.e. had his mystic ascending into the third heaven.

03-02-2012, 11:05 AM	#9
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Again, I think the idea is that Jesus's teachings are so incredible they cause its hearers to lose their minds (or lose touch with normal reality for a while). Hence also the saying "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart." Isaiah 64/3 which is referenced interestingly by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 speaking about a hidden gospel.

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