Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spaam · 08-04-2006, 04:29 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_as_myth

Frankly I'm a bit surprised. Even though I view wikipedia as being a serious encyclopedia this kind of thing is still pretty gutsy. Not being an expert on the bible I have no way of judging the accuracy of the article, but if it's accurate it could make for a good reference. Unless it's deleted (see below).

Short excerpt:

Quote:

Matthew 1:1-16 traces Jesus's lineage from King David's son Solomon through to Joseph's father, Jacob. Luke 3:23-31 traces a completely different lineage from King David's son Nathan to Joseph's father, Heli. Christian apologists traditionally explain this discrepancy by suggesting that one records a patrilineal genealogy while the other a matrilineal one, but both identify different fathers for Joseph and neither mentions Mary. Further, there is no historical precedent for indicating a matrilineal genealogy for a first-century Jewish man, and especially not to establish that man's royal heritage.

Not surprisingly though:

Quote:

This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.

JPD · 08-04-2006, 04:48 AM

There are a good deal of 'Keep' requests so chances are it will stay. It could perhaps be slightly more neutral - not starting too many paragraphs with 'Although....' and 'Despite....' but its not a biggie. The Biblical contradictions section is, of course, interesting. I hope it stays.

Chris Weimer · 08-04-2006, 04:58 AM

Jesus Myth is neither positive atheism nor secular activism. Moving to BC&H.

Chris

RainbowSerpent · 08-07-2006, 03:25 PM

This example demonstrates everything that is wrong with Wiki. The truth is not a democracy and you don't always reach it with a consensus. It seemed to me that the original article was trying too hard to be balanced and to not offend anybody. Although of course in a topic like this, there were many who disagreed and were offended, so you get bogged down with claims and counter claims about which edits will be allowed

The debate forums on sites like this are a much better way to get at facts and opinion.

RainbowSerpent

FatherMithras · 08-07-2006, 03:32 PM

Wiki, though obviously not perfect, does have a review board and will submit their articles for peer review to correct them. Wiki has over a hundred million articles, so I don't complain much. Just make sure you cross reference it with other sources, which are often linked.

Clivedurdle · 08-08-2006, 03:27 PM

The article states Bauer was one of the first proponents. Where is that list of mj authors we had here? Did it not include Voltaire and many earlier authors? Did not someone reference French writers?

andrewcriddle · 08-10-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The article states Bauer was one of the first proponents. Where is that list of mj authors we had here? Did it not include Voltaire and many earlier authors? Did not someone reference French writers?

The French writers Dupuis and Volney were mythicists before Bauer.

Although Voltaire took a very sceptical line towards the gospels as history he was not IIUC a mythicist.

Andrew Criddle

Solo · 08-12-2006, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Although Voltaire took a very sceptical line towards the gospels as history he was not IIUC a mythicist.

Andrew Criddle

It is true that Voltaire never denied Jesus existed; I am not so sure though that it was for reason other than that it afforded him a way to argue that all traditions connected to him were a hopeless fraud. To wit, he cleverly says of Jesus to attack the Catholic Church: 'He concealed from his contemporaries that he was the Son of God, begotten from eternity, cosubstantial with God, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father to the Son. he did not say that his person was composed of two natures or two wills....'. (Dictionnaire Philosophique, Christianisme)

Jiri

Roger Pearse · 08-12-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

It is true that Voltaire never denied Jesus existed; I am not so sure though that it was for reason other than that it afforded him a way to argue that all traditions connected to him were a hopeless fraud. To wit, he cleverly says of Jesus to attack the Catholic Church: 'He concealed from his contemporaries that he was the Son of God, begotten from eternity, cosubstantial with God, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father to the Son. he did not say that his person was composed of two natures or two wills....'. (Dictionnaire Philosophique, Christianisme)

I remember reading in the Edwardian essayist Augustine Birrell that Voltaire "was not a truthful person and once told lies under oath." Since people here seem to know more of Voltaire than I do, does anyone know to what event this refers?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman · 08-12-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

It is true that Voltaire never denied Jesus existed; I am not so sure though that it was for reason other than that it afforded him a way to argue that all traditions connected to him were a hopeless fraud. To wit, he cleverly says of Jesus to attack the Catholic Church: 'He concealed from his contemporaries that he was the Son of God, begotten from eternity, cosubstantial with God, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father to the Son. he did not say that his person was composed of two natures or two wills....'. (Dictionnaire Philosophique, Christianisme)

Jiri

It sounds like Voltaire is arguing fraud in a doctinish manner.
I too would like to find this "list of mj authors" referred to above.

Perhaps some of these MJ's should be more appropriately classified
as FJ's ... theories countenancing the enactment of fraud and/or
fiction as distinct from the extremely PC term "myth".

Pete Brown

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08-04-2006, 04:48 AM	#2
JPD Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 5,322	There are a good deal of 'Keep' requests so chances are it will stay. It could perhaps be slightly more neutral - not starting too many paragraphs with 'Although....' and 'Despite....' but its not a biggie. The Biblical contradictions section is, of course, interesting. I hope it stays.

08-04-2006, 04:58 AM	#3
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Jesus Myth is neither positive atheism nor secular activism. Moving to BC&H. Chris

08-07-2006, 03:25 PM	#4
RainbowSerpent Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: FantasyLand Posts: 409	This example demonstrates everything that is wrong with Wiki. The truth is not a democracy and you don't always reach it with a consensus. It seemed to me that the original article was trying too hard to be balanced and to not offend anybody. Although of course in a topic like this, there were many who disagreed and were offended, so you get bogged down with claims and counter claims about which edits will be allowed The debate forums on sites like this are a much better way to get at facts and opinion. RainbowSerpent

08-07-2006, 03:32 PM	#5
FatherMithras Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 3,890	Wiki, though obviously not perfect, does have a review board and will submit their articles for peer review to correct them. Wiki has over a hundred million articles, so I don't complain much. Just make sure you cross reference it with other sources, which are often linked.

08-08-2006, 03:27 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The article states Bauer was one of the first proponents. Where is that list of mj authors we had here? Did it not include Voltaire and many earlier authors? Did not someone reference French writers?

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