Clivedurdle

http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/gospels/disappearance.html

Comments?

Bede

This seems pretty cinvincing.

My own research is here: http://bede.org.uk/literature.htm and says much the same thing with more emphasis on debunking misconceptions.

Best wishes

Bede

Gooch's dad

I'm curious why the book burning described in Acts 19:19 isn't relevant? Is that supposed to have been the only time that Christians burned pagan books in an orgy of religious passion?

andrewcriddle

These were books about sorcery.

Disapproved of by mainstream pagans as well as Christians.

In the modern world this would be the equivalent of destroying one's porn collection or ones illicit drug manufacture manuals.

Andrew Criddle

Gooch's dad

Really? What is your evidence that "mainstream pagans" also disapproved of books on sorcery? Do you have any evidence that they also held massive book burnings?

We have prima facie evidence that the early Christian church encouraged burning of books about non-Christian topics. That's pretty damning evidence, in my opinion.

Clivedurdle

No!

Firstly all written work then was incredibly expensive and must have had the direct involvement of wealthy and intelligent people.

Second this is a very naive view of sorcery - there has always been a continua of:

Natural magic, herbalism and placebo that were far superior than the alternatives then available - there was a reasonable ground of knowledge of stuff that worked - remember Arthur C Clarke - any sufficiently advanced technology appears like magic.

Ritual - is not transubstantiation an example of magical thinking?

I have posted extensively on IIDB on magical thinking. It is not good enough to just dump an example of book burning as somehow reasonable when the reality is that it is only the replacement of one set of spirits by a holy spirit - all still magical!

There are arguments within anthropology, but please get the basics right!

Only some parts of magical practices were opposed by "pagans" - could we have another less biased word - to do with snake oil and similar matters.

andrewcriddle

Justin Martyr and Origen (in his work against Celsus) are aware of allegations that Jesus was a magician with the clear implication that this is a bad thing to be. (Origen goes to some lengths to refute this charge)

Lucius Apuleius (Author of the Golden Ass) was prosecuted by his wife's relatives for being a magician who had used sorcery to gain her hand and fortune.

According to Philostratus Apollonius of Tyana was accused of being a magician and had to defend himself from the charge

Ronald Hutton "Witches Druids and King Arthur" ch 4 "The New Old Paganism" p 105. Andrew Criddle

Bede

Suetonius in his Life of Augustus says that the Emperor ordered the destruction of all prophetic texts except the official ones he approved of. A few thousand were destroyed IIRC.

The Suda records that Diocletian ordered the burning of all the alchemical works of the Egyptians as well as Christian books.

Ammianus Marcellinus tells us that huge numbers of astrology and divination books were destroyed on the orders of the Emperor Valens. Although Valens was a Christian, Ammianus (who was a pagan) makes no suggestion that Christianity had anything to do with it.

So, actually, pagan and Christian policy towards magic and divination was pretty much identical.

Best wishes

Bede

Roger Pearse

I believe it was a capital crime, you know. I've never looked up the references, but it was part of Celsus' accusations against Christians. Apuleius was accused of it after marrying a rich widow.

But why not have a look yourself?

The Romans certainly did burn books of which they disapproved. Indeed Augustus himself arranged for the juvenalia of Caesar to be destroyed, for political reasons. Every society has done so. Do you believe that (e.g.) child pornography should not be burned? If not, then surely we are merely discussing which books should be burned, not whether?

Clarence Forbes' 1936 article Books for the burning is online at my website here. While mildly Christophobic, it's full of useful detail.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Malachi151

This probably accounts for about 30% of the reasons why works didn't get passed on. The other 60% is split between accidental and unintentional destruction, (such as an accidental fire, floods, some other natural disaster, or collateral damage in war), simply being abandoned, being hidden to protect it, but then it never got found, and intentional destruction at the hand of opponents, be they Christian or otherwise. I'd say that intentional destruction probably covers about 10-20% of the cases, but these are all purely guesses.

We do have records of intentional destructioins, both directed at specific works and also directed at locations, in which case all of the works in the location were destroyed.