Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-13-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

You must use the formula in Matthew 28:19.
You must say to the candidate, “I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

http://www.kencollins.com/how-04.htm

You never know when it will come in useful!

The only difference between xianity and the previous "pagan" stuff is that it has more powerful invocations in the name of an all powerful god (s). It is identical in terms of magical thinking.

Solo · 05-14-2008, 06:45 PM

I had a nagging feeling that I had seen a type of exorcism in the Qumran texts. Found it.

It deals with a "faith cure" of the last Babylonian king Nabonidus by a Jewish exorcist "forgiving his sins".

Quote:

The Prayer of Nabonidus (4QprNab)

The words of the prayer uttered by Nabunai king of Babylon, [the great] king, [when he was afflicted] with an evil ulcer in Teiman by decree of [the Most High God].
I was afflicted [with an evil ulcer] for seven years...and an exorcist pardoned my sins. He was a Jew from among the [children of the exile of Judah, and he said], 'Recount this in writing to [glorify and exalt] the name of the [Most High God. and I wrote this]:
'I was afflicted with an [evil] ulcer in Teiman [by decree of the Most High God]. For sevem years [I] prayed to the gods of silver and gold, [bronze and iron], wood and stone and clay, because [I believed] that they were gods...'

Geza Vermes, The Dead Sea Scrolls in English, Penguin, 1987, p.274

Jiri

Clivedurdle · 05-15-2008, 09:27 AM

Programme I refer to about Library of Ninevah discusses Assyrian exorcism practice, 700's BCE and much earlier.

It was one of the tools they used, with classic invocations, to sort out problems with natural remedies, like poultices. It was unclear if these practices were actually carried out or just recorded - at least one Babylonian scribe was literally chained to his desk by the Assyrians!

The King told his priests I am seriously ill, they responded it is a cold, so seem a pragmatic lot!

Derren Brown, Tricks of the Mind (or via: amazon.co.uk), discusses hypnosis, this sort of mind game is something humans worked out how to do to each other millennia ago.

Toto · 05-16-2008, 05:40 PM

I just ran across this, but I'm not sure how it fits in. The events are supposed to have occurred in the last half of the second century.

Simeon ben Yohai

Quote:

As the last important event in Simeon's life it is recorded that, accompanied by Eleazar b. Jose, he was sent to Rome with a petition to the emperor for the abolition of the decree against the three main observances of the Jewish religion, and that his mission was successful (Me'i. 17b). The reason Simeon was chosen for this mission is stated (ib.) to have been that he was known as a man in whose favor miracles often were wrought. At Rome, too, Simeon's success was due to a miracle, for while on the way he was met by the demon Ben Temalion, who offered his assistance. According to agreement, the demon entered into the emperor's daughter, and Simeon exorcised it when he arrived at the Roman court. The emperor then took Simeon into his treasure-house, leaving him to choose his own reward. Simeon found there the vexatious decree, which he took away and tore into pieces (comp. "Tefillot R. Shim'on b. Yoḥai" in Jellinek, "B. H." iv. 117 et seq., where, instead of "Ben Temalion," "Asmodeus" occurs). This legend, the origin of which apparently is non-Jewish, has been the subject of discussion bymodern scholars. Israel Lévi (in "R. E. J." viii. 200 et seq.) thinks it is a variation of the legend, found in the "Acta Apostolorum Apocrypha" (ed. Tischendorf, pp. 246 et seq.), of the apostle Bartholomew exorcising a demon that had taken possession of the daughter of Polymnius, the King of India. Israel Lévi's opinion was approved by Joseph Halévy (in "R. E. J." x. 60 et seq.). Bacher (ib. xxxv. 285 et seq.) thinks there is another Christian legend which corresponds more closely to the Talmudic narrative, namely, that narrated by Simeon Metaphrastes in "Acta Sanctorum" (vol. ix., Oct. 22, 1896), according to which Abercius exorcised a demon from Lucilla, the daughter of Marcus Aurelius.

Clivedurdle · 05-18-2008, 05:26 AM

Problem - get the Emperor to rescind some laws.

Solution - do something to help Emperor who then says what would you like as a reward.

What? Friendly demon possesses daughter, who is then exorcised. Nice bit of collusion.

A pragmatic relationship with demons, you scratch my back, demons seen as natural part of the world, some friendly, some not.

Xianity in contrast constructs a binary on off yes no good evil black white relationship, where you can no longer do a bit of magick to sort stuff out.

It is a huge change.

It is now Christ's Wicca. The Incantations, instead of I beseech thee O Satan, start "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost....

badger3k · 05-18-2008, 01:20 PM

I am not sure when it started, but I know that Japanese and Chinese civilizations also had exorcisms, and many of the animist beliefs had a similar ritual to drive off evil spirits (no references at the moment, just a lot of memories watching anthropology on TV). I suspect that when humans started seeing spirits in nature, and saw people who were sick or mentally disturbed, put two and two together and rituals developed. I think I saw something on a Mesoamerican (pre-Christian) ritual of exorcism (or maybe cleansing, which is close but not exactly the same as possession of a human). Might be an interesting search to see what comes up (looks at house he should be cleaning instead of being on computer and watching Ninja Warrior)....

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05-15-2008, 09:27 AM	#23
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Programme I refer to about Library of Ninevah discusses Assyrian exorcism practice, 700's BCE and much earlier. It was one of the tools they used, with classic invocations, to sort out problems with natural remedies, like poultices. It was unclear if these practices were actually carried out or just recorded - at least one Babylonian scribe was literally chained to his desk by the Assyrians! The King told his priests I am seriously ill, they responded it is a cold, so seem a pragmatic lot! Derren Brown, Tricks of the Mind (or via: amazon.co.uk), discusses hypnosis, this sort of mind game is something humans worked out how to do to each other millennia ago.

05-18-2008, 05:26 AM	#25
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Problem - get the Emperor to rescind some laws. Solution - do something to help Emperor who then says what would you like as a reward. What? Friendly demon possesses daughter, who is then exorcised. Nice bit of collusion. A pragmatic relationship with demons, you scratch my back, demons seen as natural part of the world, some friendly, some not. Xianity in contrast constructs a binary on off yes no good evil black white relationship, where you can no longer do a bit of magick to sort stuff out. It is a huge change. It is now Christ's Wicca. The Incantations, instead of I beseech thee O Satan, start "In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost....

05-18-2008, 01:20 PM	#26
badger3k Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 1,388	I am not sure when it started, but I know that Japanese and Chinese civilizations also had exorcisms, and many of the animist beliefs had a similar ritual to drive off evil spirits (no references at the moment, just a lot of memories watching anthropology on TV). I suspect that when humans started seeing spirits in nature, and saw people who were sick or mentally disturbed, put two and two together and rituals developed. I think I saw something on a Mesoamerican (pre-Christian) ritual of exorcism (or maybe cleansing, which is close but not exactly the same as possession of a human). Might be an interesting search to see what comes up (looks at house he should be cleaning instead of being on computer and watching Ninja Warrior)....

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