Johnny Skeptic

Some time ago I did quite well with a topic similar to this one at the Theology Web. James Holding et al embarrassed themselves and I retired all of them.

Consider the following Scriptures:

REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

REV 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Historically, the vast majority of humans have always had a penchant for dreaming up all sorts of religions in order to satisfy their desire for a comfortable eternal life. The common denominator is comfort. This desire has caused many people to defend religions that are much more unbelievable than Christianity is, clearly testifying to the human desire of obtaining eternal comfort.

No disrespect intended, but Christians are just like trained seals looking for a reward of fish from their trainers. Seals in the wild with abundant food supplies would never be interested in performing tricks for humans. If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable.

Truly, as far as Christians and other religious minded people are concerned, all roads lead to comfort, and if an extra-terrestrial being one day provides eternal comfort for some people, to them his identity would be of no importance whatsoever.

Even if I believed that Jesus rose from the dead, I would not become a Christian unless God first answered a lot of questions to my satisfaction. For instance, I would like for him to explain some of his questionable actions and allowances in the Old Testament, some of his questionable allowances in the world today, such as allowing tsunamis, hunger and plagues, why he gives humans such a brief amount of time to accept him, why he doesn’t provide more proof of his existence, and why Jesus hasn’t returned to earth.

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

If an evil God created the universe, it would be impossible for anyone to know what his motives are. He could easily make prophecies that come true, heal the sick, cause anyone to rise from the dead and be responsible for pleasing spiritual experiences. Even the delivery of a comfortable heaven would not be proof of God’s love since he could easily soon take it away and send everyone to hell.

Where is God today? The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention, calling into question claims that miracles occurred thousands of years ago.

Matthew 14:14 says “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.� We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. It seems to me that there are only two possibilities here, either that God is no longer compassionate in tangible ways, or that he never was compassionate in tangible ways.

When confronted with difficulties like the ones that I mentioned, Christians frequently refer to Isaiah 55:8. The versse says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.� The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn’t. If I had been alive back then, I would have asked Isaiah “How do you know that?� His response might have been “God told me so.�

Johnny Skeptic

I am curious why no Christian has made a post in this thread.

Toto

Perhaps this is in the wrong forum. Would you like me to move it to GRD?

Johnny Skeptic

Yes. Thanks.

Plognark

You're moving this to GRD?

*runs to get a helmet and a flak jacket and a solid object to hide behind*

Toto

Well, no one has answered it here because BCH is about interpreting texts and not about trained seals doing tricks for fish.

I think you should emphasize that trained seals are to be respected. They display a lot of intelligence, and play a vital role in entertaining humans, and in return they don't have to face the difficulties of so-called intelligently designed nature, where they are not the top of the food chain, and they come under the protection of animal cruelty laws. No dummies, those trained seals!

And with that, and with a certain amount of intrepidation, off we go.

Johnny Skeptic

Yes they are, and trained Christians are to be respected too.

Mr Average

Whilst I dont necessarily disagree with this, it is none the less an unsupported assertion.

Also, just out of interest what percentage of your waking day and the actions therein revolves around securing your own comfort in some way, shape or form?

Hmm, perhaps. How about the non-religous though? Are you implying that in the exact same scenario the non-religous would turn down this most generous offer? If not, then the statement is to some extent void.

In Peace, Mr Average

seebs

Okay. Er, what do you want me to think about them?

So far as I know, Revelation is essentially an encrypted message to the early church about things that happened in the first century or so. Am I supposed to be attaching special meaning to it?

It seems likely to me that we should want comfort.

I think this is a formal non-sequitur; the second clause cannot possibly follow the first.

I can't speak for seals. Birds will perform tricks to obtain food even when food is freely available; perhaps because the "tricks" constitute a bit of a game.

Many animals, especially complicated ones, play games.

So, I don't think this part of the analogy holds.

This may be so. I prefer to imagine that, freed from the cares and stresses of survival, people would probably turn to philosophy as one of the few remaining options available. Religion is one kind of philosophy.

This, I am not so sure about. Frankly, I don't feel I entirely comprehend "eternity" in any meaningful sense, and I consider the question largely irrelevant. This life is doing just fine, and as of now, I have no complaints; if this is what it is to have lived, I am quite happy with the arrangement.

You have reaffirmed variants on this claim repeatedly. What I don't see is any kind of, well, support. I would go so far as to call your position essentially irrefutable up to this point, insofar as it's pure bald assertions; there's no argumentation to refute. On the other hand, you've offered me no reason to accept your claims.

Hmm. We differ here as well. I have been unable to get an explanation to my satisfaction of exactly why magnets stick to things. Yes, I know about magnetic fields. No one has yet been able to tell me what they are; whether they are composed of particles, or waves, how they are transmitted, or anything like that.

Given that we've had a pretty good theory of magnetism for a long time, and have the ability to make genuinely amazing things using magnets, I am inclined to imagine that my capacity for understanding things may not be up to every task.

I have certainly wondered about some of these things. In some cases, I have speculative theories. In others, I have no idea at all.

I am quite okay with this. You may speak of eternal comfort, but without questions I haven't answered yet, I would be bored in weeks, let alone an eternity.

This is certainly true.

True. And, in fact, this evil God could answer all of your questions to your satisfaction.

In short, we can never disprove such a thing. It gets worse! I am unable to prove that my beloved spouse of ten years is not a talented actress, seeking to lure me into complacency for mysterious reasons beyond my comprehension.

I am not sure that I buy this logic. Why should the world stay static?

Perhaps God is compassionate in tangible ways that we can't easily measure. After all, if we can hypothesize a theoretical evil God who presents us with false miracles, we can imagine that half of all cancers are miraculously cured by God before we even detect them, leaving us to detect and try to treat only half as many cancers as we would have to if there were not a benevolent God.

We may speculate all we wish.

I don't think I accept this, because it frankly makes no sense at all. Why would I have to know what someone is thinking to know that it's not what I'm thinking? The world is full of people whose thoughts are a mystery to me, but are definitely unlike my own.

Consider, if you will, a guy in an SUV who tailgates constantly, drives 20mph over the speed limit in heavy traffic, dodges and weaves around other cars, and honks at people who don't move out of his way. This guy exists.

Do I need to be able to explain what he's thinking to tell you that he does not view this circumstance the same way I do? No, I do not.

When I was a small child, I watched a movie called Gandhi. In this movie, a man behaved in ways that I could make no sense of at all. He did not act as people normally do. I did not understand his behavior. (The movie may have been wasted on a child perhaps 8 years old.) But I could tell that his thoughts were not my own.

Today, I think, I have some small understanding of Gandhi's thoughts. I have found others who thought similarly. I have come to share some of these views.

But I knew, long before I understood them, that their thoughts were not mine, and their ways of living were not mine.

It strikes me as wholly unexceptional for anyone to conclude, based on even the most casual observation, that if there is a God, this God does not behave exactly like we do.

Johnny Skeptic

It is not an unsupported assertion. In my opening post I said "If humans were able to achieve obtaining a completely comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion. Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable." Do you dispute this?

Revelation 21:4 says "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Is the verse not about comfort?

As much as any Christian, but unlike Christians I do not claim that people who do not agree with me regarding what or who provides the comfort will go to hell.

The non-religious would feel the same way, but they do not claim that anyone who disagrees with them will go to hell.