Diogenes the Cynic

Carin, the longer passage from Josephus (commonly called the Tesimonium Flavianum or "TF") is all but universally regarded, even by most serious Christian scholars, to be at least a partial forgery. There is debate on exactly how much is interpolated. Some believe in partial authenticity, some don't, but virtually NOBODY believes in TOTAL authenticity.

The James passage is generally regarded as authentic (but it's still far from unanimous). So there you go. In point of fact, most historians and scholars still believe that Jesus was a historical person and the James passage is one of the reasons.

The Tacitus passage is generally taken as authentic as well but it can't be ruled out that he got his info from Christians themselves rather than an independent source.

It is far from clear whether Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud and the passages which are sometimes interpreted that way were written centuries after the alleged life of Jesus and (if they DO refer to Jesus) were most likely written as Jewish responses to Christian smears.

As I said, it is still the scholarly consensus that some kind of historical Jesus probably existed. That doesn't mean that any serious credence is given to any of the supernatural claims associated with him. The Josephus passage is interpolated by Christian forgers (I guarantee you that NO ONE of any scholarly note tries to argue otherwise), but even if it wasn't, it would still not provide credible evidence of miracles. Claims of the impossible made by ancient historians are always assumed to be fiction no matter who makes the claim. Josephus makes other miraculous claims not related to Jesus that are not taken seriously either.

EthnAlln

Perhaps someone ought to tell Carin why the Josephus passage is a forgery: It isn't cited where it ought to be cited, by Christian apologists who do cite Josephus in other contexts, showing that (1) they knew the works of Josephus and (2) this passage wasn't there at the time they were writing.

In addition, it is passing strange that Josephus was not a Christian, if he truly believed the assertions in this passage.

Carin Nel

We will always have the unbelievers and cynics with us. Wether Josephus believed what he wrote or not, makes no difference. Many followers of Jesus saw his miracles and turned away because the cost of following Him was too high for them in the religious climate of the day. It still happens even now.
The favorite belief "seeing is believing" is obviously just not true.

Regards,
Carin Nel

aperfectstranger

Cost of following Jesus too high? I've found the cost of not following much, much higher.

Carin Nel

Interesting news article in the Washington Times: http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...4029-4936r.htm
Regards,
Carin Nel

Carin Nel

Olivia, my dear friend, you don't know how right you are.

Regards,
Carin Nel

aperfectstranger

But how can we know if they are converting to the "correct" brand of Christianity and if they have a personal relationship with Jesus?

aperfectstranger

I know, your loving god is sending me to hell just because I refuse to mindlessly follow something which isn't worth following. Yawn. The cost I talked about was regarding loved ones who would have nothing to do with me now. Their love, sadly, is just as conditional as biblegod's.

EthnAlln

I guess I'll pass over in silence (no, on second thought, I won't) the obvious fact that nobody nowadays has seen Jesus perform any miracles, and there isn't any good evidence that people ever saw any such miracles 2000 years ago either. The issue isn't whether Josephus believed "what he wrote." The issue is whether he wrote it at all.

But, at this point, Carin, I'll accept your generous offer to allow me butt out of this conversation. All of your arguments can be simply summarized: If a text agrees with you, it's correct. Anybody who disagrees with you is simply wrong. That certainly simplifies a person's life, I'll admit. You don't have to worry that there actually might be a way of deciding what is likely and what isn't.

Luci

I find it mind boggling that a person who continually ignores facts and evidence, clings to a belief with only faith as a weapon, can still think hope to convince anyone her god actually exists.