Sven

In a thread in Ev/Cr, Carin Nel claimed the following about http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/short.html :
I'll invite her here to explain. (grab your popcorn now, please!).

RUmike

<nitpick>I'm pretty sure he is a Grandmother. Though I could be mistaken.</nitpick>

Luci

Carin Nel

Just a teaser to think about for the next 3 weeks before I hop unto the plane :

When you try to interpret the prophetic, remember the Laws of Prophetic perspective.

Clue: The Law of double reference.

Regards,
Carin :wave:

Carin Nel

Before I hop unto the plane, just a teaser to think about for the next three weeks: When interpreting Biblical prophecies, remember the Laws of prophetic perspective.

Hint: The Law of double reference.

The SAB states:
"The prophecy given in Is.7:14 referred not to a virgin but to a young woman, living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. Mt.1:23 "

Not true! Do you know why?

See you!:wave:
Carin

fromdownunder

In Isaiah 7:14, the prophet delivers what many Christians consider to be a dual prophecy, one that was fulfilled symbolically 2700 years ago, and one that was fulfilled literally with the birth of Jesus about 2000 years ago.
The symbolic part of the prophecy correctly stated that a political alliance that threatened Jewish sovereignty about 2700 years ago would fail in a short amount of time. That amount of time was defined as the amount of time that it takes for a child to learn right from wrong. But, Christians believe that this prophecy has a second meaning, that there would be someone born of a virgin, who would be referred to as "Immanuel," which means, "God with us."

According to the New Testament, Jesus was born of the virgin Mary and is the Son of God. Because He is the Son of God, Jesus literally can be referred to as "God with us."

Non-Christian scholars have challenged this interpretation. They say that the Hebrew word "almah," which is the word that Christian Bibles often translate as "virgin," actually means "young woman." It is true that "almah" means "young woman," however, the Bible never uses the word to refer specifically to a married woman.

And the Bible makes it clear that unmarried women are to be virgins.
-
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and[*] will call him Immanuel.
* either "he" or "they"

Is that it Carin? What else have you got that isn't purely speculation.

Norm

Sven

Oh, yes, I forgot. The law of double reference: Everything posted twice is true by definition.

Here! Here! I know it! Pick me!

Because Christians have invented the idea that a prophecy can be fulfilled twice out of thin air, so that they have a few verses in the OT more which meaning they can twist long enough to make a prophecy about Jesus out of it. This strategy was necessary because all real prophecies about the Messiah were not fulfilled by Jesus.

What do I get? Full marks? Or some points less for bad grammar and style?

Carin Nel

One of the basic priciples of prophecy is not to change the literal meaning of prophecy or any scripture into a spiritual or symbolic meaning, and that is what you are doing . I don't know of any "symbolic" prophecies, and what would their purpose be anyway? :huh:

This prophecy ( Is. 7:14) has only one meaning, and that is " a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel"

Quite right, so the virgin was not married, did not sleep with a man, got pregnant and gave birth to a son which she called Immanuel. That is quite a sign, don't you think? BTW, we don't quote from "Christian Bibles"
What Bible do you use? The Atheist Bible?
I rather use the Vine's and the Strong's concordance to get the meaning from the original text, then I'm sure I can't be deceived - not by christians, or by anyone else.

Is. 7:14 , “Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign; behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.” (Italics mine)

The word ” therefore” indicates that verse 14 follows after an important statement made in the previous verses, namely vers 11, “Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God;...12...But Ahaz said, I will not ask..”

Ahaz was so unbelieving that he did not want to ask a sign from God to prove that He will protect Him from the king of Syria and Ephraem, but rather wanted to seek the help from Assyria and continue in idolatry. This is what God was weary about, so He decided to give Ahaz a sign. What was the sign? The sign was that a virgin (unmarried young maiden who was never with a man) would conceive and have a son. That is an awesome sign.It is the only virgin birth in the history of mankind that ever was and that ever will be. ( We are not talking about cloning or artificial insemenation) It would be a sign to the house of David regarding eternal protection by God against all enemies. (Remote prophecy)

Virgin - Hebrew = almah: damsel, lass, maid, virgin. Translated it means “a pure, unmarried young woman . In all of the scriptures this word always means “unmarried” virgin. A virgin could not possibly have a son without being with a man, so this is the miraculous sign the Lord gave Ahaz – Mary would give birth to Jesus without being impregnated by Joseph, and would call Him Immanuel which means “God with us”. In Is. 8:8 Immanuel is also mentioned..
Mt. 1:18-25 also refers to Is. 7:14 that a virgin shall conceive and have a son and they shall call Him Emmanuel
Nothing in the verse speaks of a double fulfillment, of a virgin in Isaiah’s day, and another one later. Verse 14 refers to one virgin and one virgin- born child, and this is the way it was fulfilled . ( vs 14 with Mt 1: 18-25; Luk. 1:35; Jn. 1:14; 1Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:3-7;2:9-18)
"Almah" is used in the Hebrew Bible at Genesis 24:43; Exodus 2:8; Proverbs 30:19; Iaiah 7:14, demonstrating that, indeed, every time "almah" is used in the Bible, it definitely means virgin. Hence, Jesus was born of a virgin, which is how the Isaiah prophecy was applied messianically to Jesus by the Gospel writers.

(If this reference was merely to a young woman giving birth in the ordinary fashion, this would not constitute a sign.)

15 +16 “Butter and honey shall he eat that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings”
Verse 15+16 refers to Isaiah’s own son, a mere suckling, who is an immediate sign to Ahaz regarding both kings being destroyed in a short time. (Immediate prophecy)
Isaiah had taken his own infant son with him to Ahaz. Butter and honey were usual food for children. He said that this son would not be weaned or old enough to discern between good and evil (it refered to a certain age) before the 2 kings would be destroyed. (v 15 +16). So in Verse 14 – 16 we find 2 prophecies with 2 signs – one immediate and one remote of which both have been fulfilled.

To recap: It seems that Isaiah took his infant son as the Lord told him to do, and went to see Ahaz. On the way he began prophesying about the coming Messiah and the virgin birth as in v. 14, then pointed to his own son saying that he would eat butter and honey up to the time of knowing how to choose between knowing what is right from wrong and that before this the kings of Syria and Ephraim would be dstroyed (V. 15-16) This happened soon after that when Assyria invaded Syria (2 Ki. 16:9), and Pekah, king of Ephraim, ws killed by Hosh ( 2 Ki. 15:30), thus fulfilling the prophecy of v 15 – 16. Isaiah’s son was evidently still a baby when he went to meet Ahaz, and if one reads the prophecy with this in mind, it should be clear.


An interesting fact is that each detail of a prophecy doubles the chances of the prediction not coming to pass. For instance, a prophecy with one detail has one chance in two of fulfillment – it will either be fulfilled or not fulfilled. A prediction with 2 details, has one chance in 4 to come to pass, etc. This shows how impossible it would be for lengthy prophecies of Scripture to be fulfilled apart from Divine power.

Source:

Mostly my own work..

Spirit Filled Life Bible
Strong’s Concordance with Greek and Hebrew.
Dake’s Annotated Reference Bible
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words
http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/3january.htm

Regards,
Carin Nel

PS Back in 3 weeks :wave:

Carin Nel

Dear Sven, why so upset, mmm? Short memory syndrome? Who invited who?
Let me show you:
When I played along, your reaction? :

So far, I'm afraid...can't find your exam paper! :wave:

Carin

gregor

Carin

Surely you haven't overlooked the entire thread devoted to destroying the made up "virgin birth" claim.

Instead of the cut and paste apologetics, please go to the other thread, demonstrate to spin, Apikorus, and others your knowledge of Hebrew and greek, and convince them that your interpretation is correct.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=163887