FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.

Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Non Abrahamic Religions & Philosophies
Reload this Page 9 year old girls and the Koran
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM
Search

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-08-2005, 08:38 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England, UK, Europe, Planet Earth
Posts: 2,394
Default 9 year old girls and the Koran
(Koranic criticism... Mod's, move it if this is the wrong forum for it)

Can anyone help me respond to the following from a Muslim user of orkut.com?

Quote:
The 9 Year Old Bride 2/4/2005 4:06 AM
The age of Hazrat Ayesha(ra) is highly misreported through narrations of some weak Ahadith. If the time and effort put into misquoting Islam by some people would only be channeled the right way and they would for once use it to study Islam, then I do not think anyone would be pointing fingers at Islam. But some people act immature due to habit and some just to have “fun�.

Nearly all of the narrations regarding the age of Hazrat Ayesha(ra) come through Hisham ibn Urrwah. Hisham lived the first 70 years of his life in Medina and strangely so no one from Medina has reported this incident. The reports come from narrators in Iraq – Not Medina. The famous personality, Malik Ibn Anas, a pupil of Hisham in Medina does not either narrate any incident of Hazrat Ayesha(ra) getting married at 9.

The reports only come from Iraq where Hisham had later shifted.

In one of the most well known books on the life of the narrators of Ahadith and their reliability, Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, it is reported that Yaqub ibn-Shaibah said that “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [i.e. Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after shifting to Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-asqalaaniy, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)


I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (Tehzeeb al-tehzeeb, Ibn Hajar Al-asqalani, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol. 11, pg. 50)
Plus, on the same topic:

Quote:
2/4/2005 4:14 AM
Another well known book Meezaan al-Ai tidal reports:

When he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Meezaan al-Aitidaal Vol. 4, pg. 301).

According to a narrative in Bukhari, Ayesha(ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Quran , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Quran was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn Urwah.

The Arabic word used by Ayesha(ra) was “jariyah� and not “sibyah�. Jariyah means “young girl� and so 9 years before Hijrah, Ayesha(ra) was a young girl and NOT an infant.

Another important thing to note is the Asma(ra) the sister of Ayesha(ra) was 10 years older to her. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar Alamal-nubala, Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, pg. 289, Muassasatul-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

She [i.e. Asma] was ten years elder to her sister [i.e. Ayesha]. (Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihaayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, pg. 371, Dar al-fikr al-arabiy, Al-jizah, 1933)
I have absolutely no idea about the reliability (or otherwise) of hadith on the life of Ayesha.

Can anyone tell me what the consensus view in the Muslim community is?
Can anyone tell me whether accusations that the hadith putting her age as 9 can be disproven by other more authoritative verses?
Can anyone please tell me if there is direct Koranic evidence for Ayesha being 9 years old when the Prophet fucked her?

Ta!
BolshyFaker is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:42 AM   #2
Moderator -
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posts: 4,639
Default
I'm moving this to GRD.
Diogenes the Cynic is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:55 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England, UK, Europe, Planet Earth
Posts: 2,394
Default
Sorry I thought Bible Crit. might have more users with a knowledge of texts.

Can anyone help me with this please?
BolshyFaker is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 10:42 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,524
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by BolshyFaker
Sorry I thought Bible Crit. might have more users with a knowledge of texts.

Can anyone help me with this please?
This site has a discussion with linked counter arguments. It is a fairly moderate Islamic site.

In my opinion, the whole "Iznad science" used to authenticate Haddiths is complete bollocks. The whole lot are extremely unreliable. It's just interesting how they allow picking and choosing. It you don't like one you just point out how unreliable it is.
mirage is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 12:47 PM   #5
DMB
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default
IIRC, there is no mention of Aisha in the koran. However, many islamic scholars seem to place as much emphasis on the hadith and the life of the prophet as on the koran itself. Child marriage certainly takes place in some muslim communities today.

One of the nastier manifestations of this view of girls is that within the Iranian theocracy, girls become women at 9 and can therefore be executed as adults. There were many cases of such girls being raped before execution so that, having lost their virginity, they would have no hope of going to heaven when they were killed. Twisted thinking.

I will have to see if I can find you some references tomorrow or the next day. Meantime, I am going to send you the email address of an important Iranian fighter for human rights who can probably give you more info, if she has the time.
 
Old 02-08-2005, 01:08 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, England, UK, Europe, Planet Earth
Posts: 2,394
Default
Thank you for both responses!

DMB - any references on how you suggest this story is actually translated into brutal practices in Iran would be much appreciated, I may try and contact the lady you suggested, but I think I would be worried about wasting her time!

Mirage - I had found that site, but some of the links to counter arguments are now broken and the level of discussion is still in a league that I find difficult to assess for myself. After all, how do you respond to someone telling you one hadith is more reliable than another without being able to understand the implications that such a statement has? I think I need to study Islam more to be able to respond to it, and tbh I suspect that given the way public debate about religion seems to be moving in Britain with all this 'religion of peace' crapola, it would be an idea if other atheists did the same!
BolshyFaker is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 01:31 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 8,524
Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by BolshyFaker
Mirage - I had found that site, but some of the links to counter arguments are now broken and the level of discussion is still in a league that I find difficult to assess for myself. After all, how do you respond to someone telling you one hadith is more reliable than another without being able to understand the implications that such a statement has? I think I need to study Islam more to be able to respond to it, and tbh I suspect that given the way public debate about religion seems to be moving in Britain with all this 'religion of peace' crapola, it would be an idea if other atheists did the same!
I agree. The way you respond to it is say "Bullshit - the whole lot are unreliable, you can't have it both ways." There are always arguments between Muslim scholars to be found in either direction. The bottom line is that the Haddith was considered reliable enough by one of the great canonical Haddith collectors.

Really the very notion that you can piece together reliable oral accounts so long after the events, and at a time where there was actually commercial competition for stories of the Prophet's life, is foolish. This is the golden period of myth making, and I don't think that a few people agreeing on certain stories they rehearse to each other, apparently passed down chains of recounters, count for jack shit. There is very little good evidence for anything at all to do with early Islam. No one has a clue what really happened. Still the whole tone of the Qu'ran and Ahaddith isn't exactly women's lib. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Ayesha was that young. Mohamed certainly had a penchant for women, in a far as we know anything at all.

You end up just wading into a morass where even true believers can't agree. Best to just stick to the Qur'an, there is enough in there to argue about.
mirage is offline  
 

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:57 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.