Richard Carrier

I will be looking further into this issue, but I don't consider it a weighty argument either way, so it won't get much attention in my book even if I address it. For even if Nazareth didn't exist that doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist, only that he didn't come from Nazareth if he did (conversely, proving Nazareth did exist does not prove Jesus existed, any more than proving Jerusalem existed does). As for evidence the Gospel authors made things up for various purposes, I already have much clearer examples to use, so this one isn't very useful even in that respect.

BTW, if you know of any published scholarship presenting or arguing the evidence for or against Nazareth (obviously apart from Zindler and Salm), please let me know.


This will feature in the book, but my book's aim is not to be definitive, but to show scholars how (more or less) definitive answers could be got (if at all). I will make an example case, with a minimal theory (the one I think most likely), but I won't claim to have proved my theory (since I think scholars need to do a lot more work on the relevant details, and various scholars have different theories and thus a debate among us is needed).


This I consider unresolvable. One can only ask whether (or to what degree) the Gospel "according to Mark" corresponds with or contradicts Paul's gospel, theology, soteriology, etc. (either of which it can do regardless of whether the author of Mark knew Paul personally).


My hope with this book is to give scholars a framework with which to thoroughly explore (if not resolve) the questions that interest each of them (since everyone has different interests and specializations), and integrate them together toward a coherent overall theory (assembled from the work of many scholars each doing what they do best).

lpetrich

I'd recommend considering how one tells fact from fiction for other notable people in the past.

• Julius Caesar -- why the evidence is so good
• Socrates -- why there is a "Socrates problem" of telling fact from fiction about him
• Theodoric the Great -- being remembered as Dietrich von Bern some centuries later
• St. Francis Xavier -- getting credited with more and more miracles as time went on

And I'd also recommend discussing Lord Raglan's Mythic-Hero profile and various clarifications, emendations and additions, like:

• Splitting "royal virgin" into two criteria
• No mention of childhood is only significant for a remembered infancy
• Child-prodigy stories, like Luke 2:41-52 for Jesus Christ
• Prophecy fulfillment, often despite efforts to thwart it -- remarkably common

I've started and contributed to several Lord Raglan threads here, scoring various people and suggesting the childhood-prodigy and prophecy-fulfillment criteria. In particular, I've found that Zeus, Perseus, Oedipus, Romulus, Jesus Christ, Krishna, the Buddha, Alexander the Great, and Augustus Caesar were all prophecy fulfillers.

I've even scored Harry Potter and Anakin, Luke, and Leia Skywalker, finding them all rather high. But then again, JK Rowling and George Lucas were likely familiar with a lot of mythology, even if not Lord Raglan's work.

Ted Hoffman

I meant to say whether the Author of Mark was familiar with Paul's letters. But your response captures what I had in mind.

Steven Carr

One point of comparison could be Benjamin Creme's movement , which declares that the Maitreya is a real person living now, and indeed living in the Brick Lane district of London.

But does such a person exist, despite Creme's biographical details about him?

Toto

The discussion of JP Holding's book has been split off here.

bopot

No offense to anyone, but having Richard write a book on the historicity of Jesus seems like a wasted opportunity to me. I understand I'm in the minority here, but I don't actually care whether or not Jesus existed. Either way, the damage has been done. That said, I can't think of a better subject for Richard to tackle, off the top of my head. :huh:

Toto

off topic questions split off

youngalexander

Been in Aotearoa!

er, yeah, $250

No worries!

Richard Carrier

Indeed. I already planned something like this (including a discussion of the "historicity" of Socrates, for example). I may do Alexander the Great instead of Julius Caesar, though. And I don't think I'll spend much time on persons from other historical eras, since the context is so different (and I am not as solidly an expert in those periods).



Indeed. This is already on the menu. I'll be treating the subject with a more limited and logical approach than perhaps has been done (since I specifically want to avoid the need for over-theorizing, as I believe more extensive forays in that direction should follow, not precede, the grounding of a position on historicity).



Please email me your citations of examples from ancient sources, both of prodigy and prophecy details (and if I use this I'll credit you, so state how you want to be credited and whether you relied on any other scholars for the discovery).


Do you have a theory as to why this aggregation of attributes remains so appealing, even in a radically different society now like ours?

Vincent Guilbaud

Dear R.Carrier,

You said at the beginning:
I would prefer you make two books,
- One only on the methodology very soon
- One, several years later, on your own result applying your own method,
that might be accepted at the time as a reference for secular people.

The problem about Jesus Historicity vs Myth resides in the 3 group of Christian/Jewish texts
from the 1st century, with, for each one, its own equation about Jesus:

1 Jesus from the Epistles = Jesus of Nazareth from the Gospels

2 Jesus of Nazareth is the Author of the first Galilean Sayings

3 The Number of reliable Events in the Gospels > 0

If you can just provide us an honest methodology with a dozen of major criterias for each case,
that would help tremendously.

Then we will have to compare if there are more chances that they are all true or all false,
or other weird scenarios...

I would buy 100 of your books...

All the Best,
http://www.FromChristToJesus.org
(web site still in construction...)