Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 04-04-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

...

Many have asked me, often repeatedly, when I'll write a serious monograph on the question of the historicity of Jesus. The present answer is: not for many years. I have too many other projects I'm personally more interested in, and even those I will have little time for now as I begin my job search. ... But if I could erase the remaining bulk of our debt burden (at least $20,000) I could justify devoting the next four months almost exclusively to completing a specific job.

In that time I would finish all the research I still have planned (but haven't already done), read every relevant book on both sides of the question (I already have a list), thoroughly research every item I find important, and write a book of professional quality for publication by an academic press. I had already planned such a book out last year, and just shelved it for the future. But I could dust it off and get it done if financed.

The book I propose would take the approach of arguing first and foremost for a logical historical method that all reasonable people could agree on, which would allow any objective investigator to ascertain whether Jesus probably did or didn't exist, simply by plugging in the facts known to them. Then my book would survey what I find to be the most important facts, and apply the presented method to them to demonstrate what my view now is and why, and how it could be changed (since new facts, or legitimate corrections to the facts I use, could change my conclusion, and this may happen even in the course of my final research for the book, but in any case the result will be my honest and well-informed expert opinion).

Such a book would considerably advance the debate in two important respects: First, as I am now (certainly by the time of completion) a qualified Ph.D. (in ancient history, the relevant field), and I will work to meet the standards required to get a serious academic publisher for the book (I'll approach my alma maters first, University of California Press and then Columbia University Press, but in any case something comparable), it will be the most academically rigorous discussion of the issue yet in print. Second, my approach will be to actually facilitate progress in the debate (toward either conclusion) by articulating a clear and defensible method for resolving it (and presenting a case for what further research is needed to do that). Both qualities will help bring this debate to the attention of academic experts so a more informed consensus can eventually develop among those most qualified to judge the issue.

...

If this work is funded now, the book will be completed within four months, and will likely appear in print in 2009 (otherwise probably not for another five or ten years, if indeed ever). Donors will get the privilege of viewing the final draft before publication so they can make requests for revisions (and any that are valid will be heeded). I have an unpublished paper that in effect serves as a preliminary outline for this book, which I will provide only for the private review of serious donors. And I can prepare the same for any other project proposed.

spamandham · 04-04-2008, 08:58 PM

...I bet it wouldn't be that hard to raise $20000 in preprint sales if someone had a means to organize it.

mens_sana · 04-04-2008, 10:40 PM

With the presses mentioned,* I would pre-order five copies.

* Oxford University Press might be considered also.

Ted Hoffman · 04-05-2008, 02:04 AM

It's a good idea though I think four months is too short for such a project. Carrier can do this job throroughly and well so those that have money are advised to come out and contribute. I will buy some advance copies.

FireBrandon · 04-05-2008, 05:23 AM

Yes. I think we should try to get as many people as possible to try to give to this project. I appreciate Richard Carrier's approach to the historical method in his writings. Yesterday I belabored in debate with a Christian for about 40 minutes and made no headway because he flatly stated that he was not open to dialogue with me, he was only seeking to convert me. He said he was open to God speaking to him, but not to the idea that there is no God. Near the end I almost began to tear up because of the hardness of his mind and inability to see the harm of religion to the human race and the potential scientific discovery that could be made if individuals worked instead of prayed for things.

Anyhow. All that to say is that funding atheistic belief is important to me because of the people at stake. Most modern Christians will say that their faith lies on the historicity of Jesus and of the Resurrection and so this topic is definitely one worth writing about. I'm in.

lpetrich · 04-05-2008, 01:03 PM

It's unfortunate that I don't have much money to spare, or else I'd pledge some to RC for his efforts.

Given that he's now effectively a Ph.D., he has some good academic credentials that he can show off, so he may be taken more seriously than most Jesus mythers.

Toto · 04-05-2008, 02:29 PM

Please stay on topic. split posts that do not belong here.

also here

Zeichman · 04-05-2008, 02:34 PM

To get back to the thread, I'd definitely be curious to see what Carrier has to offer. I'd agree with Micheal that four months seems to be way too little time to devote to a book that would (probably) try to overthrow everything ever done in NT scholarship. Perhaps he's got a lot of his thoughts well formulated already, but this is pretty damn ambitious. Perhaps its him tooting his own horn, but it sounds like this might contribute something to the field of NT studies, unlike a lot of what is written on the topic. That said, it might be better for his sake and for MJer's sakes if he waits a while, if merely to establish himself within the mainstream of the field of NT studies and ancient history more generally. I'd have to imagine most scholars still see him as someone with an axe to grind.

<edit>

Toto · 04-05-2008, 02:47 PM

<consistency>

I think that Carrier has read enough, and knows enough, so that four months would allow him to complete his research and update the paper he referred to. I gather that he does not intend to write a mythicist book that finally provides The Answer, more of a methodology book that advances the debate.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-05-2008, 02:58 PM

<removed>

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04-04-2008, 08:58 PM	#2
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	...I bet it wouldn't be that hard to raise $20000 in preprint sales if someone had a means to organize it.

04-04-2008, 10:40 PM	#3
mens_sana Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 1/2 mile west of the Rio sin Grande Posts: 397	With the presses mentioned,* I would pre-order five copies. * Oxford University Press might be considered also.

04-05-2008, 02:04 AM	#4
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	It's a good idea though I think four months is too short for such a project. Carrier can do this job throroughly and well so those that have money are advised to come out and contribute. I will buy some advance copies.

04-05-2008, 05:23 AM	#5
FireBrandon Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 47	Yes. I think we should try to get as many people as possible to try to give to this project. I appreciate Richard Carrier's approach to the historical method in his writings. Yesterday I belabored in debate with a Christian for about 40 minutes and made no headway because he flatly stated that he was not open to dialogue with me, he was only seeking to convert me. He said he was open to God speaking to him, but not to the idea that there is no God. Near the end I almost began to tear up because of the hardness of his mind and inability to see the harm of religion to the human race and the potential scientific discovery that could be made if individuals worked instead of prayed for things. Anyhow. All that to say is that funding atheistic belief is important to me because of the people at stake. Most modern Christians will say that their faith lies on the historicity of Jesus and of the Resurrection and so this topic is definitely one worth writing about. I'm in.

04-05-2008, 01:03 PM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	It's unfortunate that I don't have much money to spare, or else I'd pledge some to RC for his efforts. Given that he's now effectively a Ph.D., he has some good academic credentials that he can show off, so he may be taken more seriously than most Jesus mythers.

04-05-2008, 02:29 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please stay on topic. split posts that do not belong here. also here

04-05-2008, 02:34 PM	#8
Zeichman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 562	To get back to the thread, I'd definitely be curious to see what Carrier has to offer. I'd agree with Micheal that four months seems to be way too little time to devote to a book that would (probably) try to overthrow everything ever done in NT scholarship. Perhaps he's got a lot of his thoughts well formulated already, but this is pretty damn ambitious. Perhaps its him tooting his own horn, but it sounds like this might contribute something to the field of NT studies, unlike a lot of what is written on the topic. That said, it might be better for his sake and for MJer's sakes if he waits a while, if merely to establish himself within the mainstream of the field of NT studies and ancient history more generally. I'd have to imagine most scholars still see him as someone with an axe to grind. <edit>

04-05-2008, 02:47 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	<consistency> I think that Carrier has read enough, and knows enough, so that four months would allow him to complete his research and update the paper he referred to. I gather that he does not intend to write a mythicist book that finally provides The Answer, more of a methodology book that advances the debate.

04-05-2008, 02:58 PM	#10
Jeffrey Gibson Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,058	<removed>

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