Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Patriarch Verlch · 06-04-2006, 09:22 AM

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77

Not only do we have the eye witness account of the 11 disciples, but we have these early century writers that bore witness to the fact.

Yes and only one disciple died a natural death, the others were all murdered. Hmmm, they died poor and now some skeptics say mislead. How is that so? Have you noticed all of the leaders of anything, sacrifice themselves, preach the word, and then die in unspeakable ways?

Getting ran through with spears, heads smashed in, Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome, wasn't he?

Hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

xaxxat · 06-04-2006, 09:25 AM

duck...

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77

Not only do we have the eye witness account of the 11 disciples, but we have these early century writers that bore witness to the fact.

Yes and only one disciple died a natural death, the others were all murdered. Hmmm, they died poor and now some skeptics say mislead. How is that so? Have you noticed all of the leaders of anything, sacrifice themselves, preach the word, and then die in unspeakable ways?

Getting ran through with spears, heads smashed in, Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome, wasn't he?

Hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

Wow, that's a whole lot of wrong. Perhaps some sort of record in a post so short. Care to back any of that up? You could start with your first sentence and then we'll move on from there. Where are these accounts?

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 10:02 AM

I tell you what, why don't you just provide the eyewitness testemony of one disciple.

Toto · 06-04-2006, 10:03 AM

extra Biblical evidence for Jesus in BCH

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 10:09 AM

No fair, Toto. You're jumping ahead.

Edit: Toto, it'd probably fit better in the thread to which you linked but was it Julian that maintained a site with a color-coded reference to Jesus' contemporaries that shoulda/coulda written about him? If so, do you have the link? I lost it in a computer move last year. If it's somebody else's, could I still have it? Gracias por la ayuda.

Diogenes the Cynic · 06-04-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patriarch Verlch

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77

Not only do we have the eye witness account of the 11 disciples, but we have these early century writers that bore witness to the fact.

Yes and only one disciple died a natural death, the others were all murdered. Hmmm, they died poor and now some skeptics say mislead. How is that so? Have you noticed all of the leaders of anything, sacrifice themselves, preach the word, and then die in unspeakable ways?

Getting ran through with spears, heads smashed in, Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome, wasn't he?

Hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

Hello. Patriarch Verlch, and welcome to IIDB. You have made a number of assertions grounded in Christian tradition which unfortunately are completely lacking in any historical evidence or corroboration, and in some cases are demonstrably incorrect.

To wit:

1. We do not possess the testimony of any disciple or any eyewitness of Jesus. Nothing in the New Testament was written by anyone who ever met Jesus.

2. There is no evidence that any disciple was ever martyred for his beliefs.

3. There is no evidence that any of the disciples (if they existed at all) ever made any supernatural claims about Jesus. ever claimed he had physically risen from the dead, ever claimed to have seen an empty tomb, ever claimed to have believed Jesus was God or ever claimed to have believed he was the Messiah. All of those claims were made decades after the alleged facts by people who never met Jesus and probably never met anyone else who ever met Jesus.

Toto · 06-04-2006, 11:08 AM

Javaman:

Iasion maintains a helpful web page with color coding. Try this: The early evidence for Christianity or other pages from here.

Javaman · 06-04-2006, 11:24 AM

That's it! Thanks much. Must have been an I/J thing in my head.

Biff the unclean · 06-04-2006, 11:48 AM

Pat, although the bible keeps says 12 disciples it names 14. How can that be?
These guys are just all part of the story…the fictional story. They are no more eye witnesses to Jesus than the crowd who shouts “Look up in the sky! It’s a bird! It’s a plane! IT’S SUPERMAN!!!!” are eye witnesses to Clark Kent.
Would they be exposed to kryptonite by Lex Luthor if they didn't know Superman was real?

06-04-2006, 09:22 AM	#1
Patriarch Verlch Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 111	Extra Biblical Evidence For Jesus http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77 Not only do we have the eye witness account of the 11 disciples, but we have these early century writers that bore witness to the fact. Yes and only one disciple died a natural death, the others were all murdered. Hmmm, they died poor and now some skeptics say mislead. How is that so? Have you noticed all of the leaders of anything, sacrifice themselves, preach the word, and then die in unspeakable ways? Getting ran through with spears, heads smashed in, Peter was hung upside down on a cross in Rome, wasn't he? Hardly something you would expect from men that were eye witnesses of a lie.

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06-04-2006, 09:25 AM	#2
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	duck...

06-04-2006, 10:02 AM	#4
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	I tell you what, why don't you just provide the eyewitness testemony of one disciple.

06-04-2006, 10:03 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	extra Biblical evidence for Jesus in BCH

06-04-2006, 10:09 AM	#6
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	No fair, Toto. You're jumping ahead. Edit: Toto, it'd probably fit better in the thread to which you linked but was it Julian that maintained a site with a color-coded reference to Jesus' contemporaries that shoulda/coulda written about him? If so, do you have the link? I lost it in a computer move last year. If it's somebody else's, could I still have it? Gracias por la ayuda.

06-04-2006, 11:08 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Javaman: Iasion maintains a helpful web page with color coding. Try this: The early evidence for Christianity or other pages from here.

06-04-2006, 11:24 AM	#9
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	That's it! Thanks much. Must have been an I/J thing in my head.

06-04-2006, 11:48 AM	#10
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Pat, although the bible keeps says 12 disciples it names 14. How can that be? These guys are just all part of the story…the fictional story. They are no more eye witnesses to Jesus than the crowd who shouts “Look up in the sky! It’s a bird! It’s a plane! IT’S SUPERMAN!!!!” are eye witnesses to Clark Kent. Would they be exposed to kryptonite by Lex Luthor if they didn't know Superman was real?

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